Eaves and roof returns...

[Chad Cardin]

Ive been reading this great book I bought a while back called "Get your house right" by Marianne Cusato that demonstrates true architectural details for residential design. I was trying to demonstrate her examples of proper eave and roof return building in chief but noticed that chief doesnt seem to be able to do some of the details in these two areas. Has anyone read this book and know what type of 'proper' traditional eaves and return details Im speaking of?

One example was changing the slope of the roof returns even if its different then the roof slope and I noticed that I wasnt able to do this. Another example was creating sloped coronas that terminate into horizontal coronas on gables/roof returns, I also couldnt recreate this example. Does anyone have any experience with traditional eave details or have read this book before? Im curious how you create these details in chief.

Thanks!

[lgswe]

Chad....I'm with you man. I've had this book for 5 or 6 yrs. now and have been "preaching" about CA's faults with cornice returns since I started using it with Version 10.
It's much better than it was, but CA still has a long way, well to CA's benifit "a ways" to go. Adding shadow boards was a big step. From the tickets I've sent in recently on some of the "return & soffit" problems it's not a very high priority. Now if everyone would send a ticket in!................This might be a different "matter of fact" situation.
To answer your question about the "proper eave and roof return" using CA, you can get "pretty close" by manually doing returns (lower pitches) and manually placing certain molding profiles. It all depends on how much time you want to spend. Shown is a project I did with X4, which is before shadow boards. Many of my projects are restoration projects, so I'm always "taxing" CA limits in the "modeling aspect". I haven't done a really "intensive" project since the one shown in the attachment, but I have done many with cornice (roof) returns and CA definetly has problems with their soffits and returns. The only way to remendy this is to "b****"! Or in the "CA world"....send in tickets---"squeaky wheel gets greased". I get as close as I can with the "eye candy" (as time allows) and show exactly what I want with a good cad detail. There may be other programs "out there" that could do a better job, but to me hands down, CA is the best "bang for the buck".

[moak]

We now have the option to have unique profiles on the eave and rake which I've assumed (never tried) could allow the creation of a raking cyma as illustrated in page 85.
Sometimes I'll do returns with molding polylines if I'm struggling with having them auto generated or it it isn't quite working out with roof planes. That said, my details generally have fewer profiles than those shown in the book.

[Curtis Johnson]

I think Gene Davis and/or others have posted threads on this topic in the past ... possibly/probably several versions ago of CA.

[Chad Cardin]

Thanks for the replies.

Larry, thanks for the explanation and pic. You really did a great job with the tools at hand. I dont often do too many traditional styles that require this type of detail but its becoming more popular and I figured its best to start now on learning how to get these details correct. I noticed you mentioned the details for renderings but since you explained how chief lacks in these areas. How do you handle the CD's/cross sections etc of these details when in chief you have to use this and that remedy to try and get the look correct? Thanks again for your input!

[lgswe]

Chad....I ALWAYS do a cad detail from scratch. CA has a long was to go for me to completely use their cross section on close up details-----there's just to many variables. I will sometimes use CA's cross section as a starting/reference point, but that would be all. I use to do my cad detailing in AutoCad, but I'm now really trying hard to just use CA's cad tools. Some days it's very frustrating, but I'm getting better. I only pray CA's cad does the same.

[Bradley Boltz]

Chad....I'm with you man. I've had this book for 5 or 6 yrs. now and have been "preaching" about CA's faults with cornice returns since I started using it with Version 10.
It's much better than it was, but CA still has a long way, well to CA's benifit "a ways" to go. Adding shadow boards was a big step. From the tickets I've sent in recently on some of the "return & soffit" problems it's not a very high priority. Now if everyone would send a ticket in!................This might be a different "matter of fact" situation.
To answer your question about the "proper eave and roof return" using CA, you can get "pretty close" by manually doing returns (lower pitches) and manually placing certain molding profiles. It all depends on how much time you want to spend. Shown is a project I did with X4, which is before shadow boards. Many of my projects are restoration projects, so I'm always "taxing" CA limits in the "modeling aspect". I haven't done a really "intensive" project since the one shown in the attachment, but I have done many with cornice (roof) returns and CA definetly has problems with their soffits and returns. The only way to remendy this is to "b****"! Or in the "CA world"....send in tickets---"squeaky wheel gets greased". I get as close as I can with the "eye candy" (as time allows) and show exactly what I want with a good cad detail. There may be other programs "out there" that could do a better job, but to me hands down, CA is the best "bang for the buck".

Larry, nice cornice and exterior casing detailing. How did you or where did you get your "Raised Panel" articulated corner boards?-Brad

[lgswe]

I started with a regular corner board and added p-solids for the step up. I know it was a lot of extra work, but I know of no other way. Once I did one corner, if I remember right, I blocked it and then just copied it on other corners where needed. I can get the "look" I want with CA about 98% of the time. It's just the "time" it takes to do it that can be frustrating.

[Bradley Boltz]

Yea, I'm with you on the time thing. I just did a log front porch addition and had wingDing it with pline solids and mouldings for the client requested 3d renderngs. Looks like you do good work. Have to see where Orangevlle, Pa is on the map. Just measured a job in Miner's Village near Cornwall on Saturday evening. I only do design (except for my own stuff at home) anymore as the building stuff kept me awake at night. Enjoy today's warmish weather.-Brad

[lgswe]

Brad...I have a "gentleman's farm" about 10 miles north of Bloomsburg between Orangeville and Millville. Some folks call it "hick's country". After the freeze last week it's real easy to enjoy today. I think I'll go out and trim some of my fruit trees.

[cache]

Ive been reading this great book I bought a while back called "Get your house right" by Marianne Cusato that demonstrates true architectural details for residential design. I was trying to demonstrate her examples of proper eave and roof return building in chief but noticed that chief doesnt seem to be able to do some of the details in these two areas. Has anyone read this book and know what type of 'proper' traditional eaves and return details Im speaking of?

One example was changing the slope of the roof returns even if its different then the roof slope and I noticed that I wasnt able to do this. Another example was creating sloped coronas that terminate into horizontal coronas on gables/roof returns, I also couldnt recreate this example. Does anyone have any experience with traditional eave details or have read this book before? Im curious how you create these details in chief.

Thanks!

I use that book all the time because I specialize in traditional new construction. I have good news and bad news for you. The good news is that X6 has the ability to spec "flat" instead of "sloped" eave returns. Flat actually means "very low slope" because you can still spec a hip or gable return, and in a elevation view the minor slope is discernible. Pair with that the ability to use a custom profile in the shadow boards and friezes tabs and you can very easily create a "poor man's cornice" (pg. 204-205 in the book), which is what most builders will resort to anyway because they don't have the proper tooling to construct a raking cyma properly. The poor man's cornice is what is represented in Larry's pic, and it is more than adequate for the exterior render. If you want it constructed correctly in practice, you will have to do a close up with CAD drawings of the detail, because about 99.99% of builders don't know how to do it properly. I have to do my own, and I order custom knives for my moulder when necessary. Also, almost nobody other than architects can discern the difference on a home between a proper raking cyma and a poor man's cornice. X6 does a great job creating a poor man's cornice automatically with the proper defaults. Don't waste your time trying to do it properly if it isn't absolutely necessary.

The bad news is that you cannot separately select a return plane and change the elevation, depth, and pitch, which would be nice. The other bad news is that a proper raking cyma is only ALMOST possible with auto roof returns and auto shadow boards, at least in X6, not sure about the others. You can specify different profiles for the eave and the gable on the same roof plane (thank you CA for adding that functionality), so you can create a built-up cornice profile, complete with cyma, corona, and bedmould. Then create another profile and stretch the cyma portion to create a raking profile. So creating a roof plane with flat auto returns and a built-up shadow boards on the eaves, and a stretched version on the gable, you ALMOST get what you want. Unfortunately, one distinct characteristic of the proper raking cornice is that the bottom edges of the main roof panel and the return panel are not at the same elevation or depth. That is what separates the proper cornice from the poor man's cornice.

So if you want it correct you have two options.

1-- For the first one you'll need three different moulding profiles; the normal complete built-up cornice, the elongated cyma version of the complete cornice, and then a version of the cornice with the terminating portion of the cyma missing just above the cove portion.

Create the main roof panel and use the complete built-up cornice profile for the eave shadow boards, and the elongated version for the gable shadow boards. Then manually draw the return planes and use the cornice with missing terminating cyma for the shadow boards on those. Then drop the elevation of the return planes and shorten them until the cove portion of the cyma matches up with the main roof plane. Obviously, this method is fairly quick once you modified the moulding profiles and saved them.

2-- The next method is to use molding lines which is actually quite simple too. You still have to draw your return planes independently because they still have to be shortened and dropped. You also still need the three different built-up profiles. Just go into the roof planes and eliminate the soffit and fascia. Then draw your moulding lines and place them correctly. Doesn't take too much time when you've drawn them as built-ups because there is only one line for each. But obviously if you move the roof planes around you have to go back and line up the moulding lines.

I like the first method better, but it can be tricky to get it to come out right. The second method might be more user friendly.

[Chad Cardin]

I use that book all the time because I specialize in traditional new construction. I have good news and bad news for you. The good news is that X6 has the ability to spec "flat" instead of "sloped" eave returns. Flat actually means "very low slope" because you can still spec a hip or gable return, and in a elevation view the minor slope is discernible. Pair with that the ability to use a custom profile in the shadow boards and friezes tabs and you can very easily create a "poor man's cornice" (pg. 204-205 in the book), which is what most builders will resort to anyway because they don't have the proper tooling to construct a raking cyma properly. The poor man's cornice is what is represented in Larry's pic, and it is more than adequate for the exterior render. If you want it constructed correctly in practice, you will have to do a close up with CAD drawings of the detail, because about 99.99% of builders don't know how to do it properly. I have to do my own, and I order custom knives for my moulder when necessary. Also, almost nobody other than architects can discern the difference on a home between a proper raking cyma and a poor man's cornice. X6 does a great job creating a poor man's cornice automatically with the proper defaults. Don't waste your time trying to do it properly if it isn't absolutely necessary.

The bad news is that you cannot separately select a return plane and change the elevation, depth, and pitch, which would be nice. The other bad news is that a proper raking cyma is only ALMOST possible with auto roof returns and auto shadow boards, at least in X6, not sure about the others. You can specify different profiles for the eave and the gable on the same roof plane (thank you CA for adding that functionality), so you can create a built-up cornice profile, complete with cyma, corona, and bedmould. Then create another profile and stretch the cyma portion to create a raking profile. So creating a roof plane with flat auto returns and a built-up shadow boards on the eaves, and a stretched version on the gable, you ALMOST get what you want. Unfortunately, one distinct characteristic of the proper raking cornice is that the bottom edges of the main roof panel and the return panel are not at the same elevation or depth. That is what separates the proper cornice from the poor man's cornice.

So if you want it correct you have two options.

1-- For the first one you'll need three different moulding profiles; the normal complete built-up cornice, the elongated cyma version of the complete cornice, and then a version of the cornice with the terminating portion of the cyma missing just above the cove portion.

Create the main roof panel and use the complete built-up cornice profile for the eave shadow boards, and the elongated version for the gable shadow boards. Then manually draw the return planes and use the cornice with missing terminating cyma for the shadow boards on those. Then drop the elevation of the return planes and shorten them until the cove portion of the cyma matches up with the main roof plane. Obviously, this method is fairly quick once you modified the moulding profiles and saved them.

2-- The next method is to use molding lines which is actually quite simple too. You still have to draw your return planes independently because they still have to be shortened and dropped. You also still need the three different built-up profiles. Just go into the roof planes and eliminate the soffit and fascia. Then draw your moulding lines and place them correctly. Doesn't take too much time when you've drawn them as built-ups because there is only one line for each. But obviously if you move the roof planes around you have to go back and line up the moulding lines.

I like the first method better, but it can be tricky to get it to come out right. The second method might be more user friendly.

Cache, thank you for that indepth explanation. I like that you have the book and also have a solution and have run into the same challenge. For the current abilities in chief, did you just create a custom molding profile to mimic all the 'correct' build up moldings explained in the book to get the final look to install as a single molding? It also sounds like things have slightly improved in X6 thanks for updating us all with that.

Larry, thanks again for the pic, its really helped me see how to get the closest results in chief.

[cache]

Yes. An easy way to start is to download the WindsorOne manufacturer library. They already have a builtup crown that is similar to what you want. Place the moulding profile in the plan and modify it to the proper soffit depth. The thing about WindsorOne is that they have followed historic precedent when designing their mouldings. Most other manufacturers have not. Currently, if you really want that detail to come out right, you will need to draw roof returns manually and use moulding lines. But again, don't waste time on a detail that nobody can distinguish unless you want to show off. The first couple times, it takes a while to get it to look right. The poor man's cornice is the accepted standard in building now. My personal opinion is that it looks just fine. There are so many other legitimate things that designers screw up (look at any home designed in the 70's), this isn't a huge deal. I say that unless we are talking about arched dormers. Standing seam arched dormers are all the rave right now because we are in a style phase right now that is a transitional-industrial. Many people want traditional elements like full cornices and dormers, but they don't want to go all the way to victorian "floofiness". So they want a full builtup cornice with traditional proportions but using cleaner and slightly more modern profiles. Then they want to use more arches with commercial materials like standing seam metal roofing. I'm fine with that because I love transitional styles when done correctly. In fact I'm doing a transitional French shingle home right now, with standing seam arched dormers. But literally 9 out of 10 arched dormers that I see these days are not designed well at all.

[cache]

Here's a Couple examples of what I'm talking about with the arched dormers, because they are so much easier to screw up than regular gable or hip dormers.

Notice in this pic that almost nothing is in proportion and the arch looks like it is just and cylinder that has been dropped on top of some walls.


Again in this one, the arch has nothing supporting it properly. It is just draped across the dormer.


This is the correct version of a full entablature on an arched dormer. It could be simplified for a more economic approach, but the proportions and support need to remain.


This is how to do one that doesn't have a full cornice across the front. Notice that the eaves are flared and provide a proper termination so it doesn't look like it's awkwardly tossed on there.


The interesting thing about all these pictures is that the homes are of the same style architecture. I can understand if someone is doing an industrial modern building and chooses those from the second picture. They are then meant to look more like a commercial awnings in that case, but everything else about these homes is dutch revival and french country, complete with flared eaves on a mansard shake roof. The style must be cohesive.

[Chad Cardin]

Cache,

Thanks for the heads up on the best moldings in chief, I will check those out. I love your examples in the pics you posted, it reminds me a lot of exactly what the author of the book I mentioned talked about. These small details, really make a huge difference, they really substantiate the overall design when done properly. Thanks again for the examples!