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  1. #1
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    Under Counter Appliances

    I have a symbol for an under-counter wine cooler, 24" wide x 34" high, designed to fit beneath a standard 36" high countertop. I've tried all the Options in the symbol dbx, but I can't get the cooler to insert into a standard 30" wide x 36" high base cabinet. I thought that if I defined the symbol as an "Appliances (built-in base cabinets)" and "Inserts into cabinet front" that I could get it to behave properly, but CA always gives me the error that the base cabinet isn't large enough. In the Library Browser preview, the cooler is clearly shown outside the base cabinet, with the bottom just above the toe kick. So I defined a base cabinet without a toe kick, but the cooler still won't insert. So I resized the base cabinet to 48" high, easily tall enough to accommodate the cooler within the cabinet face, but it I still get the same error. My workaround is to define the cooler as "Sits on floor", then manipulate the base cabinet with a opening in the face and wide stiles either side of the cooler, but I'd prefer an automatic "drag and drop" behavior that doesn't require messing around with the base cabinet definition. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?
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  2. #2
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    Under Counter Wine Coolers just get placed in a space between Cabinets. IOW, they are designed to sit on the floor and require a small amount of clear space for ventilation. You then use the Custom Counter Top tool to extend the Top over the Cooler.

    Symbols that insert into a Cabinet Front are basically just the face element. Otherwise they have to have their origin set to the face of the symbol.

    IAE, to insert a 24" wide appliance you would need a cabinet 24"+(2*Stile Width). It has to fit in the clear space.
    Joseph P. Carrick, Architect - AIA
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  3. #3
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    Regardless of how a wine cooler would get installed in the real world, chief lets you create appliances like under counter refers and dishwashers that insert into base cabinets. The best reason I can think of to do this is so that you don't have to create a custom countertop. You could certainly create a free standing symbol and always draw a custom counter top over it.

    Take a look at the refers and dishwashers in the chief library. You should be able to figure out what you did wrong with your symbol which is why it doesn't work the same. I would guess that the problem is the width not the height.

    If you can't figure it out, post your symbol on this forum and I would guess that someone can figure it out quickly.

    If all else fails, contact tech support.
    Kilgore Trout

  4. #4
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    Got it. I played around some more and determined the base cabinet "size" error was due to insufficient depth, not height. Eventually I could get the symbol to work, and it would auto-adjust for the height of the toe kick, but it's a lot of work for something that I thought would be easy.
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  5. #5
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    This is an interesting concept discussion.

    Generally the only Appliances that are installed in the face of Cabinets are:

    Ovens
    Some Microwave Ovens (mostly those with "Trim Kits")
    Warming Drawers

    Those and a few others (custom built-in appliances) actually fit within the Cabinets.

    Most other Appliances such as:

    Refrigerators
    Freezers
    Dish Washers
    Compactors
    Beverage & Wine Coolers
    Cooking Ranges (other than "Drop-in" and "Counter Top")
    Many Microwave Ovens, etc

    actually fit between Cabinets - sometimes with Counter-Tops over them and sometimes not.

    How such Symbols are defined and Handled within Chief should be (but maybe isn't) consistent.
    Joseph P. Carrick, Architect - AIA
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  6. #6
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    Here is another interesting quirk that I can't figure out. Here is a CA default 42" double sink (straight from the Core Catalog) inserted into a base cabinet, which shows the default CAD block assigned by CA:

    Attachment 61664Attachment 61665

    Everything looks fine. Note that the ortho view shows the sink inserting nicely into the countertop.

    Here is the same sink with a CAD block auto-generated by CA using the Symbol Specification dbx, 2D Block tab:

    Attachment 61666Attachment 61667


    Notice that CA appears to "cut" the countertop with square corners and a hole defined by the overall depth of the sink, including the faucet. Why does the shape of the CAD block determine the countertop "cutting" behavior? Shouldn't it be the 3D geometry that controls? Anyway, there's a clue in this discovery: CA Core Catalog symbols that insert into countertops ship with CAD blocks that include a custom countertop polyline in the shape of the symbol footprint. However, I haven't figured out all the nuances of how this works.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7
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    The automatic cad block generated by chief won't always make a good hole for your sink. If you are going to spend any time making your own custom sink symbols, then you should probably go ahead and make your own custom holes for the counter top. If you place the cad block from one of chief's sinks into a plan and explode it, you should be able to find a custom counter hole as an example.

    All you need to do is create a custom counter top, open it for spec, and make it into a hole. As far as I know, custom counter top holes are the only thing in chief that can be holes and not actually be inside another object. Make sure to include your custom hole as part of your symbol cad block and the program should use your custom hole instead of the automatic one. This will give you the control you need to make the hole any size and shape.
    Kilgore Trout

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
    The automatic cad block generated by chief won't always make a good hole for your sink.
    Yes. What had me puzzled for a very long time is that even when I don't include a custom countertop in the CAD block definition, CA must guess at the hole it's supposed to cut based on the CAD block geometry, not the actual 3D geometry. To me, this is counter-intuitive, and I don't see the advantage. My head thinks of it this way: countertop = solid; space defined by the 3D symbol's geometry = solid; now just do a boolean subtraction.
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  9. #9
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    If you have an under mount sink, you wouldn't want to use the 3d data for the hole either. No matter what they do automatically, the hole will be wrong sometimes. Having the ability to put your own hole in the block means you should always be able to get what you need.
    Kilgore Trout

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
    If you have an under mount sink, you wouldn't want to use the 3d data for the hole either. No matter what they do automatically, the hole will be wrong sometimes. Having the ability to put your own hole in the block means you should always be able to get what you need.
    That's a really good point that I hadn't considered.
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  11. #11
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    Sinks go into cabinets in Chief's special way. Sinks, sitting atop or under countertops, must have some way of cutting an opening, and the way is the "hole in countertop" thing. A top-mount sink has a CAD block associated with the symbol and one of the polylines in that block, representing its outer perimeter, has the "polyline is hole in countertop" specification.

    An undermount sink, if its 3D geometry is brought in from, say, Kohler, needs some work done to its CAD block to make things work as you expect. The reason is that Kohler models for undermounts are real 3D models of the sink unit, with its mounting flanges.

    Front-mount appliances in cabinets have another kind of logic going on. Dishwashers, etc. Ovens. Warming drawers. There is no counter top to cut, but Chief will check width and height to see if the symbol will fit. It will center the item both ways on the front as its default result.
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