What is Residential BIM

[gteacher]

“…..far better to create a standard BIM export and let other software packages do their "thing"….

Lew:

Let me ask the question again, because I have yet to get an answer or perhaps an understanding?

Exactly, what is the protocol that you would export too? I don’t know of one. BIM is a vague concept, supported mostly by academics as an ideal perception. It’s hard to meet your discussion, because, how can you argue with the concept of “motherhood and..” That’s exactly what BIM is – a pleasant fantasy that completely fails in the details. What vendors would you export to, who picks which one and what protocols do they support? Of the third party Vendors, there are no standards now. If I have to buy several other pieces of software to make Chief functional, why not buy an integrated software package instead? The market shows that the integrated is much more popular at our level.

I think that was Doug’s point. Protocols come and go. The only practical accepted BIM standard of AIA E202 isn’t really used to any degree. At least, in our industry. I believe that the required modifications to chief to service a dozen other add-on companies that may come and go, is vastly more difficult than what may be required to develop the same within Chief. And with much better control, as Doug pointed out. There always will be some industries that can do something’s better, as in the case of maybe trusses, but for the mundane (ML), not so.

Based on the “hints” dropped by Doug and other Chief guys, I think they understand the issues. I doubt if they are going to commit corporate suicide by chasing a pleasantry. The only question I have is: is this just more hype or are they really serious? Time will tell but I haven’t seen anything to date that their moving in any particular direction. Time may be running out?

[rcole]

Interesting discussion.

The promise of BIM is to do what Chief does really well today and more. The marketing of BIM in many cases appears to be a way to sell hard to use software to people who don't know any better.

I have personally experienced the price tag that comes along with the hype of even partially emplemented BIM. I also appreciate the other points Doug made.

The question I have is, how do we take what Chief does really well today and get to the more part without the proper format for real, meaningful, and ongoing dialog between Chief and it's users regarding developement of the ML. We already have plenty of lists, long discussions about what doesn't work regarding the ML, and what BIM is or isn't. Beta is really too late, IMO, until the next time around, and that would be the next time around when these particular features are on the table.

[lbuttery]

Gerry:

I first started following BIM back in 2005 when I bought Chief

I have never delved too deep into it because Chief wasn't capable of playing in that league

so every once in awhile I would read an article or attend a webinar and start to drool again

it has been about two years since I attended my last BIM webinar
I gave up since it seemed futile

At the last one I attended it was a multi-hour all afternoon session
where they created a model in Revit and then took that model to software A
then back to Revit - then to software B - etc etc etc

it was quite amazing watching this round robin
and the results for energy calcs and structural analysis and collision detection etc etc etc

if they mentioned the file protocal I don't remember what it was

I would suggest finding some of these recorded webinars
and maybe joining the next round of live ones and watch for yourself

back then I posted links for Doug and others to attend so we could discuss the merits
as far as I know there were no takers

at this point I am engaging in these discussions for "enjoyment"
I am now retired due to disability and no longer in the "business"
I am using chief solely to model my ancestors tourist elevator at the Niagara Whirlpool
and a few other personal projects

so basically - I no longer really care if Chief has BIM or not

at the end I was looking at Affinity as a possible career path for my business
but my disability ended that consideration
Sketchup can do bi-directional with Affinity - why can't Chief ?
Check with Trelligence to see what format they are using

there is all kinds of BIM software out there and they are talking to each other
and sharing tasks

Chief is outside looking in and if they care to really look they would see all the "fun" they are missing

bottom line - there in no way that Chief could be an integrated package
and do all the tasks that are being offered out there for 3D, let alone 4D and 5D (we'll skip 6D)

I feel like Columbus debating those who think the world is "flat"
I have seen the promised land and it looks good

I haven't been there and maybe its all a fantasy
but they sure made it seem real

I have no proof of my own but I do believe the Apollo missions were real
and that we really did land on the moon

Lew

[gteacher]

Lew:

Revit, Microstation, Bentley and others are still a completely different ball game. And most of those demo's are staged and written specifically for the Demo. I was in that business, on the user end, for 20-30 years and it's just not that straight forward. But very, very expensive. That's why Chief has a market in the mid range.

I don't think we need to go to the moon, there is some mid ground, and that might be some variant on BIM (whatever that is). Chief just needs to get off their "***" and take a fresh look at this. That why they get the big bucks. A more cooperative effort would break the frustration.

[lbuttery]

Chief just needs to get off their "***"


Gerry:

yep, 100% agreement here ....


most of those demo's are staged and written specifically for the Demo

Hmmm, sure didn't look staged and it was live ???

Lew

[rcole]

What I have seen to be the case is that even though they can integrate data exchange between programs, it is generally the basic modules of the support applications. In the case of WoodWorks, as soon as you incorporated the data into the core of the program, the connnection was lost. They also increased the price of upgrading the program by three fold.

I am glad that Chief is not chasing bells and whistles, but same ole same ole just does not cut it in an area as important as costing a project.

[gteacher]

Chief just needs to get off their "***"

most of those demo's are staged and written specifically for the Demo

Hmmm, sure didn't look staged and it was live ???

Lew

I sat through many, many of those Demo's. Believe me their staged and never delivered on promises. The interfaces were so limited and expensive , both in cost and maintenance, that we just laughed at them. If you building a Tank, or missile, or destroyer, you better use BIM. BUT other than that, BIM still hasn't evolve out of the realm of the "never-never land" of the consultants. It works only internally across departments, where the user has complete control.

[Ed_Downunder]

Interesting discussion.


A lot of people seem to want to define BIM as the same thing as Interoperability. BIM is more of an umbrella concept that seems to adapt and expand to cover just about everything imaginable. Which is why I dislike conversations about BIM because it encodes concepts into some sort of "newspeak" format that obscures understanding.


The promise of BIM is to do what Chief does really well today and more. The marketing of BIM in many cases appears to be a way to sell hard to use software to people who don't know any better.

Our goal isn't to support BIM. Our goal is to provide tools for you to make your jobs easier. If along the way we happen to implement BIM that is fine. But our goal is to deliver on the promise of efficient, easy to use software, to make our customers more successful at doing residential and light commercial design.

We have been delivering on that goal year after year for two decades now. What are the programs that are chasing BIM delivering?

Hi Doug,

That was great input. It throws light in dark places.

Your dislike for conversations about BIM are understandable from your side of the table. Probably because people are asking for stuff and not always understanding what is being asked for.

To say BIM has been hijacked is probably a bit of an over statement. Some would argue that BIM is maturing and does turn into a conversation about "interoperability"

Do I want BIM at that level. No - Engineer collaboration is in on my father christmas list but not this year.

The intention of this thread is educational. We have BIM working on our computers every time we turn them on. You provided it and thank you.

I say we have BIM is it really BIM or *******Residential Building Information Modelling --Residential BIM--RBIM

This is not just a play on words and I have no interest in playing devils advocate.

BIM is just ridiculous at the Residential Builder space. Residential BIM is the reality. It is a conversation that is just starting.

Just as there is a separation between cad------2D cad 3D cad there is a separation between BIM and Residential BIM. Can't point to an external body with developed protocols to justify my point but I can turn on Chief and watch it in action.

The principle of BIM is obtainable to a Residential Builder.

1. Improved visualization
2. Improved productivity due to easy retrieval of information
3. Increased coordination of construction documents
4. Embedding and linking of vital information such as vendors for specific materials, location of details and quantities required for estimation and tendering
5. Increased speed of delivery
6. Reduced costs

Which part of that this are you not delivering. I bet we could even get number 4 working better for ourselves if we knew how.

To open the discussion IE embrace RBIM would produce a more considere discussion about the materials list.

My frustration with the ML started when I tried to use it. So I say "fix it" "I want it to work" "It's this" "it's that" "it's the other"

Now I feel we have a better platform of discussion because my mind turns to what do I want as an outcome. "interoperability" no that not what I want as an outcome.

The various feature that already in Chief play nicely together. Thats what I want as an outcome.

There is an elephant in the room and it's this. All the work falls on my shoulders. I would like to delegate the task of updating the materials list prices to another person. Train that person on that part of the process.

Exporting to excel is not consistent with the efficiency argument and is not the solution or outcome I would like to use. It has it's place but as a office process for documentation, No thank you.

I don't want to have to buy a second license to achieve that outcome.

In another thread the project browser is discussed. Along with schedules. Material List etc. What a perfect place to develop.

[lbuttery]

as soon as you incorporated the data into the core of the program, the connnection was lost

Edward:

some of the programs are uni-directional others are bi-directional


Gerry:

Believe me their staged and never delivered on promises

If so, then this whole conversation has been a waste of time

Chief will be Chief and never the twain shall meet

I give up cause I just don't give a d**n anymore

I've made my last BIM posting

not because of your posts

but because CA has made it clear they don't really give a d**n either

I have been posting trying to "poke a stick in their eye"

but if BIM is a fantasy then none of it matters

Lew

[Justice]

Lew don't give up as 3d interoperability is what Doug and team are looking into now.

They cut the deal with 2d interoperability with 2d DXF early on and then 2d DWG, all we need now is 3d IFC or 3d DWF for now or some global 3d IO (interoperability) man I hate writing that word so I use BIMIO.

Or at the price Chief is, why bother just sell everyone a copy of Chief Architect fully develop the ML and estimating for housing purposes and be done with it.

If you need full residential or commercial scale 3d BIM just get ArchiCAD or Revit and pay your money and keep quiet.

Doug is advocating the KISS method for Chief Architect or "Keep It Simple Stupid" that's why I still use Chief for non complicated projects.

I have had enough for now I am going fishing to wind down you could do the same?

[Ed_Downunder]

Just had to google to understand what "interoperability" means

I imagined it was so another software program could put information directly into Chief and leave.

For example the engineer could open my model do his thing and leave.

If I understand this correctly now - it's the ability to import and export DWG that's "interoperability"

I import DWG feature survey from the surveyor. I used to get them as PDF print them out and input the data manually.

Importing the DWG from the surveyer gives me perfect boundaries and perfect terrain elevation.

I say perfect because if they are wrong it's not me that has made an error.

I don't buy the argument all or nothing. Chief is delivering. There seems to be a disconnect with what it does and user understanding of what it does.

I export DWG to the engineer and import from the surveyer. I am going to ask for a DWG from the engineer on the next job to see if it useful.

I am also looking at the cabinet maker to see how he works. Anecdotally he can also get a DWG from me and return it with the cabinets drawn in.

Isn't this Residential BIM in action. The ML is a known disaster area that is probably moving up the priorities list and the more we talk about it the higher the profile.

I have been using Residential BIM for a while now but I didn't know it. Now I do!!

[lbuttery]

Edward:

I don't need commercial level BIM, Residential BIM would be fine


you are not even close to understanding what inter-operabiltiy is all about with BIM

watch some of the recorded webinars or attend some live webinars and you will see where Chief is "lacking"

but then Gerry says they are staged and a a fantasy

so none of this is real anyways

I feel like a kid who has been staring thru the candy store window for 8 years and drooling
over what I see inside

then I'm told that it is all just a fantasy

I'll still don't understand how these MAJOR corporations are doing mult-MILLION projects
using BIM via inter-operability and yet it is all just a fantasy

I guess there really isn't a Santa Clause ....

This has to be my last post on this topic - as I just don't care anymore
Being retired I no longer need BIM

Lew

[moak]

At the residential scale I'm generally hard pressed to find consultants that do their own drawings never mind needing the functionality of interoperability. For that matter, the consultant list is generally a structural engineer, maybe a lighting designer, maybe an interior designer (if they used CA the communication would be seamless.) Sometimes the structural engineer will draft their own (usually with 2D ACAD), sometimes I will draw from their mark-ups. Mechanical is usually design build, even on some of the more ambitious homes. Plumbing is design build. I find the level of BIM offered by Chief to suit this scenario.

This is not to shortcut progress in this area, but to state that I'm not bumping into any barriers in my workflow. As more people begin to work with parametric systems, this will be pressing. A structural engineer working in Revit can import my 3D geometry via a dwg or sketchup model and can return 3D structural data with a dwg or dxf. Granted this is not seamless or pretty, but is serviceable at the residential scale.

[Jay M]

It took until version 15 to get shadow boards (on 99.99% of homes in the northeast) and you're woofing about BIM? I feel like an old man watching two 60's hippies talk about world peace....... It's a great idea but it isn't happening.

[lbuttery]

I feel like an old man watching two 60's hippies talk about world peace....... It's a great idea but it isn't happening.

Jay:

I remember those days

yep, it ain't gonna happen

after 8 years I finally realize that

Lew