designing kitchens

[Thomas 123]

I am currently using 2020 design and considering changing to chief architect and was a little concerned on how it compares. modifiying cabinets and using catalogs

[carpenterguy]

Chief is not a dedicated cabinet design and drafting software.
20/20, as I hear, is a pain but it is dedicated to cabinets and the manufacturers that make the cabinets.

Chief probably will not do what you need it to do in that regard.

Andy.

[dgavin]

IF you need catalog support and instant pricing then Chief cannot help. IF you are a contractor and need to create complete scenes, additions etc. then Chief would be better.

[woody18428]

I am currently using 2020 design and considering changing to chief architect and was a little concerned on how it compares. modifiying cabinets and using catalogs

I have done kitchen remodeling for years ! I bought cheif because of the price 9.5 version .
I am presently using x2 , i feel like cheif is alot better for as - builts ! I never really met a designerr who knew all the power of 20/ 20 !! Using 20/20 is way better for quotes , BUT IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY FOR BOTH CHEIF & 20/20
20/20 USES ALL AVAILABLE CABINETS & YOU WONT , OR SHOULDNT HAVE TO MODIFY THEM !!
CHEIF HAS COME ALONG WAY WITH CABINET SUPPLIERS BUT FOR QOUTES 20/20 STILL HAS IT !!

[Gene Davis]

More info, please.

Are you selling cabinets to contractors or property owners?

What catalog content do you use? Pricing? Fronts and finishes? What else?

Are you aware of how many different manufacturers have their fronts and some trim elements available in library elements with Chief?

Can you copy and show here in images some examples of your important 2020 outputs? 3D renders? Dimensioned elevations? Cabinet schedules? Pricing workups?

[MarkMc]

I've used 2020 for 13 years, dropped support on my license after version 9. xx and got Chief. The learning curve is a bit difficult coming from 2020, doesn't even work like CAD. I use it for everything now. All my brands either have on line pricing or don't support 2020 anyway, sides never found I could trust price in 2020. If you use some of the bigger brands that have direct input from 2020 that is different.
Chief is"
better at working drawings by far, more accurate, better dimensioning, far more stable. Can produce better renderings easier (though does not do middle of the road ones as fast or as easy), support is a joy and cheaper- night and day.
I do a lot of mods and custom cabinets- 2020 doesn't cut it for me. I have Envisioneer to solve that but am not going back to 2020 so selling off my copy of Envisioneer.
CA does have it's quirks- officially called "work arounds" there are a few that are very annoying.

None of the brands I use have catalogs in Chief- not a big deal. The trick is to make a template for each brand (and ceiling height). Then copy doorstyles to sub folder in the user catalog and rename them.

I have the Interiors version- If I had it to do over again I'd get Premier- Sales will tell you that if you don't have to go inside the walls you don't need more than Interiors but there are a couple of features that are locked out that would help when you have a work around to do. I get away with a CAD program to solve most of those on working drawings.

I will upgrade one of these days. If you are buying it during one of the discount sales as I did be aware that they don't offer a discount on an upgrade from Interiors to Premier during those. Last time I was going to upgrade I got a second license instead. This time I'm about to get ProKitchen for the easy fast jobs.

[Emily Black]

Chief Architect gives you flexibility with kitchen design plus additional interior and exterior spaces. You’ll find many efficiently tools such as automatic ceiling generation, flexible cabinet controls, material painter tools, automatic NKBA dimensioning in floor plan and elevation views and much more. We offer generic or manufacturer cabinets, flooring, doors, tiles, windows, appliances, hardware, and more. You can change and customize all aspects of your plan more freely within Chief Architect. You’ll also have flexibility to create one room or the whole structure if you need to move your design to the basement area or an outdoor kitchen. Below are some links to additional resources or call our sales department at 800-482-4433 do discuss how Chief Architect can meet your needs.

Trial Version:
http://www.chiefarchitect.com/products/trial.html

Samples Gallery:
http://www.chiefarchitect.com/products/samples.html

Free Online Demonstration:
http://www.chiefarchitect.com/products/livedemo.html

Manufacturer Catalogs:
http://3dlibrary.chiefarchitect.com

Product Options:
http://www.chiefarchitect.com/products/

[WendyWelton]

20/20 will give you the most direct tie in, including ordering and pricing. But, it's directed at the cabinets, not the whole kitchen. In our businesses' project accounting we often forget to include the cost of acquiring each client. If you can take the time and referral value that went into that and meet more of that client's needs, you've made the most of the value of that sale.

Chief has excellent manufacturer catalogs. You can put pricing in via the materials list. And, you can do a better job of showing the entire kitchen and beyond. So, if you're design-build you can use it to design and sell beyond just the cabinets. Maybe the best design for that kitchen means changing walls, doors & windows, changes to the rooms woodwork and materials, expanding it with a sun room addition... If you use software that considers it's role "done" when the cabinets are done, you could be leaving sales on the table.

So - if you're just selling cabinets, you probably can't beat 20/20. If you're selling the whole kitchen and have the capability to go beyond (like other renovation/addition work for that same client), Chief will let you maximize your sales to each client.

[carpenterguy]

20/20 will give you the most direct tie in, including ordering and pricing. But, it's directed at the cabinets, not the whole kitchen. In our businesses' project accounting we often forget to include the cost of acquiring each client. If you can take the time and referral value that went into that and meet more of that client's needs, you've made the most of the value of that sale.

Chief has excellent manufacturer catalogs. You can put pricing in via the materials list. And, you can do a better job of showing the entire kitchen and beyond. So, if you're design-build you can use it to design and sell beyond just the cabinets. Maybe the best design for that kitchen means changing walls, doors & windows, changes to the rooms woodwork and materials, expanding it with a sun room addition... If you use software that considers it's role "done" when the cabinets are done, you could be leaving sales on the table.

So - if you're just selling cabinets, you probably can't beat 20/20. If you're selling the whole kitchen and have the capability to go beyond (like other renovation/addition work for that same client), Chief will let you maximize your sales to each client.

Now THAT is an excellent post on this subject.

Andy.

[MarkMc]

I'd agree that Chief has helped me get sales even though we don't do any construction.
Better working drawings, more reliable dimensioning, and in many ways a more manageable experience for clients during meetings.
OTOH
I don't find the material list workable for pricing. It is not dynamic so changing sizes,adding/removing mods or accessories requires manual changes to pricing. It is easier and safer in a spreadsheet or online ordering. There are also two "gotchas" side panels that don't take up space or show in plan and the smaller problem of casings not stopping cabinets.

IF I were happy with 2020 -I'd continue to use it with Envisioneer which also designs entire structures and produces good documents. On the face it would be like using Chief with complete cabinet catalogs and pricing.
- It would be a superior combination for kitchens.

But I'm not happy with 2020, tired of waiting for them (13 yrs) and prefer Chief to EV having and using all three. So am staying with CA, dealing with pricing otheriise and will lobby to have quirks fixed, they are more responsive than 2020.

[WendyWelton]

OK, now I'm curious. I believe the pricing for the materials list can be made dynamic via editing the Master List, but I've never done it.

Can anybody speak with more authority about that?

[pamdesigns]

Hi Wendy,
I've tried creating a cabinet pricing and parts list via the Master List for cabinets some time ago and found it to be extremely cumbersome so I didn't finish. In part because I have 2020 and it was a lot easier to create a master part and price list. One of the capabilities of 2020 is to create a list without creating a drawing that is just a data entry exercise. For me, the advantage of using 2020 for creating the master parts and price lists is placement of responsibility for accuracy (to an extent) on the manufacturer that created the library. Also, having a level of confidence in knowing they are likely to create a pricing structure and strategy built within the library that is unique to that product based on their experience and the fact they have a financial stake in its accuracy.

This is really important the more a cabinet manufacturer is amenable to 'customizing' their standard issue because what and how they will customize is different with each manufacturer. I have brands of cabinets that I have read their spec guides from front to back and inspect every catalog update when they are issued --and still find that I am not as proficient at calculating prices or getting the parts exactly right to the extent the manufacturer would be by use of their 2020 catalog. So accuracy of data entry of prices is not the only issue, but being able to create a design from the available 'parts' that is comprehensive and accurate is equally important. I've always insisted that at least two people go over orders before they are submitted to the manufacturer. (In my case, that is myself as the designer and the installer who is also a remodeling contractor and cabinet dealer.) The manufacturers I have worked with have always been happy to go over my 2020 price and parts quotes to verify accuracy and nearly always discover items that are redundant, lacking or could be done better or more cost effectively. From the dealer's standpoint this adds a level checks and balances that helps to ensure profitability and keeping their reputation in good standing -the two most important things that keep their doors open.

As I mentioned the company that I have worked with mostly is a remodeling contractor that has a cabinet dealership. As you stated: "So, if you're design-build you can use it to design and sell beyond just the cabinets. Maybe the best design for that kitchen means changing walls, doors & windows, changes to the rooms woodwork and materials, expanding it with a sun room addition... If you use software that considers it's role "done" when the cabinets are done, you could be leaving sales on the table." For this reason, I use Chief to create my design and working drawings --something that cannot be done with 2020. Yes, this means I draw the kitchen twice --and it's difficult to make sure everything measures out exactly between the two programs. My cabinet installation drawings that go into the drawing set to the contractor include the 2020 drawings imported as jpegs into the Chief layout. The drawings that are for permit purposes omit the 2020 drawings and are all Chief.

[jmedgar]

We use Chief (now X3) for all kitchen, bath and closet designs. It is not as effective as applications dedicated to kitchens, and closets (as for example, KCD Software -- by the way, is anyone else using KCD?). But it is, as the originator says, a lot more flexible in designing a whole room or multiple rooms rather than just cabinets.

Pricing from the materials list is, however, a lost cause. We tried it, and tried all sorts of workarounds. It flat does not work. The Chief materials list is primitive and basically useless. If it has been updated since Ver 9.5, I did not notice. What we ended up doing is writing our own software to take the cabinet dimensions from Chief andd translate them into shop specifications, including a cut list. Not by any means the most satisfactory solution, but it works for now.

I wonder, and I simply don't know since we have not used 20/20 for 10 years, can't you turn off everything except cabinets and export a Chief plan to 20/20 as a .dxf file?

[dchaley217]

I used 2020 for sometime and hated it because of its lack of details and cumbersome use. I switched to Chief and sold 2020 after my supplier developed a web order system. Now I am completely happy and would not give a nickel for a copy of 2020 or Prokitchen or any others. Chief could use a bit of tweaking but overall I love it compared to the others.

[MarkMc]

How'd you manage to sell 2020, thought that it is non transferrable. I'd sell mine in a hot minute.

I'm better than average with it, almost as good as anyone except a few catalog writers (much better than I am with CA) but I have had it.
I occasionally use the item list the way Pam suggests- nothing beats it for fast ballpark quotes, far faster than any of the half dozen on line ordering systems I've used.
I've played with PK recently. I will be getting that for the small easy jobs as soon as I sell Envisioneer.
It's stable and can produce editable elevations (CAD), good pricing fast, very good rendering easily and quickly, and there are KD's around who can use it.
If you want to talk about leaving money on the table then being able to do a quickie for some folks is essential. For simpler jobs I lose money using Chief.

But the main reason I'm getting PK is I can have my semi custom brand design a kitchen in either PK or 2020 with three revisions for $35 which is applied to the order. For smaller or simpler kitchens it's like having an extra employee cheap. I will not be going back to 2020, thought maybe v10 would do it but not from what I can tell. Been the same nonsense since v5.1

I really like Chief, it suits my work- IMO it needs more than a little tweaking for kitchens and cabinets (and I don't really expect as much as I'd like to be coming all that soon).
Still the best choice for me by a lot for overall use or I wouldn't have gotten a second license and investing in training someone.