Materials List Revisited

[ALAN MATHEWS]

It would be nice if we could put a list together of priority items to improve the function of the material list.

IMO it would take a lot of time to rework the whole system.
If CA could fix items by a priority list that comes from users it may have a better chance of being implemented.

No software is ever perfect but it would be nice if the more glaring problems could be fixed even if it happens
a little at a time.

My list:
1. Fix insulation calculations. Had problems of trying to get rid of insulation in a garage ceiling.

2. More robust component features.

3. Better listing of materials in the ML

4. Able to change column widths in the ML so we don't have to export to other programs.

[Ed_Downunder]

Hi Alan,

It seems all we can do is keep talking about and hope the sheer weight of numbers does the trick.

I like your list because it's not asking for bells and whistles it a simple request for a functioning feature

[lbuttery]

No software is ever perfect but it would be nice if the more glaring problems could be fixed even if it happens
a little at a time.

Alan:

as a former programmer I agree that no software is "perfect" or ever will be "perfect"

however, applying "band-aid" fixes to the ML is not really a solution

we have to be able to trust it
without trust - it is useless

I am not willing to create a model and then create a ML
then have to verify each and every line each and every time I create the ML

just ain't gonna happen

so until I hear that the majority of chiefers are happy with the ML
and that it only needs a few fixes or work-arounds I ain't even interested in trying it

you can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig....

Lew

[Glenn Woodward]

4. Able to change column widths in the ML so we don't have to export to other programs.

Alan,

You can already do this.
The cursor doesn't change, but you can click and drag the column division along the top line to make the column wider.

The request should probably be to have a different cursor for dragging the columns wider.

[ALAN MATHEWS]

Hi Alan,

It seems all we can do is keep talking about and hope the sheer weight of numbers does the trick.

I like your list because it's not asking for bells and whistles it a simple request for a functioning feature

Yes

If little things get fixed and is tested by users we may have a better ML system.

Thanks Glen for letting me know about column width.

Change curser wouid help. Don't know if this is in manual.

[gteacher]

..... applying "band-aid" fixes to the ML is not really a solution

we have to be able to trust it
without trust - it is useless...

Lew:
You just summarized the most germane part of about 100+ posts. --- Good Show. Perhaps it does take a programmer to see the problem. At some point we all have to realize the best path is to step back and re-evaluate.

What is being lost is that no one cares what we want. We, as designers, are creating a product for someone else to use. Functionality is the only thing that matters here and Chief’s ML is not functional. Small nudges to solve these problems isn’t going to help.

As designers, we are supposed to be in tune with the needs of our customers. That’s why people value our opinion. That doesn’t seem to be the case here. The focus should be: “how can we make these features an asset to our customers”?

It might be more productive to suggest that some pick up a demo copy of the competition or other BIM software to see what the market needs and trends are, rather than what makes me happy today?

I believe that keeping us “busy” arguing with each other isn’t going to solve much either. Only a cooperative, fresh approach can do that and Chief does already process the nucleus of an innovative solution. But without input and direction, it’s going to take another left turn to a dead end.

[lbuttery]

If little things get fixed and is tested by users we may have a better ML system

Alan:

sorry to disagree

but what is needed is a BIG fix

then, if there are few "bugs" - "blips" - workarounds we could live with that

currently, there are so many bugs and workarounds that I doubt if anyone could even
provide a list of them all

when there is a 180 shift in reliability - then we could list the few "issues" and know
what to do about them until the next release addresses them

there would always be some "issues" that are not addressed or new ones introduced

but at this time - reliability is not an option

Lew

[lbuttery]

Gerry:

thanks....

at this time if I needed a material list or an estimate I would out-source the task
or consider third-party solutions like Planswift

CADEST used to be another choice but it appears to be out-dated

Lew

[Doug Park]

It would be nice if we could put a list together of priority items to improve the function of the material list.

IMO it would take a lot of time to rework the whole system.
If CA could fix items by a priority list that comes from users it may have a better chance of being implemented.

No software is ever perfect but it would be nice if the more glaring problems could be fixed even if it happens
a little at a time.

My list:
1. Fix insulation calculations. Had problems of trying to get rid of insulation in a garage ceiling.

2. More robust component features.

3. Better listing of materials in the ML

4. Able to change column widths in the ML so we don't have to export to other programs.

Item 1 seems clear to me.

Could you elaborate on 2 and 3. Specific needs please. My understanding of better and yours are probably not identical.

Item 4. You can already change the column widths by clicking and dragging the dividing line in spread sheet header.

[ALAN MATHEWS]

Maybe we could start with int & ext trim.

Molding polyline works well as they can specify moldings that can be calculated by the ML and multiple trim can be added.
If there was a switch on this dialog to specify int, ext trim, siding & etc. would be helpfull .
That way if this was drawn for ext trim it would go to the correct catagory.

Window and door trim should be listed by there trim profile just like molding polylines. This way ML could be calculated by profile & material.
Also multiple trim for backband etc. this would be able to list different trim for all windows & doors

Lintel & sill should be listed by there molding profiles and multiple trim to provide for stacked trim. may be ext. jambs also so this calculates per window.
If fascia could be specified as a molding also this could be calculated. I think shadow boards work as a molding & work well.

Trim items could be calculated like the current framing cut list as some trim is only available in 16' & 20' lengths such as azek & windsor one.

I think some simple items to fix like these will go a long ways .

Maybe some of you need more expert systems. I did look into Plan Swift briefly but dont Know much about it & if it would fit for me.

Just some of my thoughts.

Corner boards as trim

T alsohanks Al Mathews

[drafting edge]

Hi Ed, i am new user to this forum but we have been using chief architect for a number of years. As we have just upgraded to X5 we are now assessing if we should genuinely pursue costing the models via the materials list. To date we draw and manually cost every model and over time we have created very similar models that can be re-used and the costings are similar. We saw the chief video which has been talked about a lot on this forum and got excited about the prospect of creating a model that was accurate and fully inclusive to be able to run a detailed and accurate costing from. However the key part of that sentence is "accurate" as we want to use these models to reduce the manual costing department of the job and improve the overall accuracy in the quoting of projects, and we are not interested in pursuing something unless the outcome can be accurate and 100%, effectively a quote today and a purchase list tomorrow. I have used similar costing from 3d model programs in the past but all have fallen short of the mark in generating a "push of the button" result, and whilst you can create a costing it is not accurate or detailed enough to bank on. From experience the model is everything, but the time it takes to draw the model to the highest level of accuracy with as few work arounds as possible is extensive, possibly but extremely time consuming. If this time was rewarded with a fully accurate and detailed costing then it may be worthwhile, but i get the sense from the comments in this forum that even with a model drawn to a level well beyond what is needed for construction purposes you may not be able to 100% rely on the outcome, is that a fair comment?

i would be interested to hear from people that are using the materials list for costing and getting really good results, most of the comments are pointing out the flaws in the program but surely there must be people that have gone this route and get a good result?? are people using a 3rd party costing software that we can export the models into, or is the best method still the ruler and calculator? I am very interested in the thoughts of the users as i know software manufactures like to promise a lot in the brochures but the reality on the ground can be a different story.

Geoff Baker
Melbourne Australia

[Ed_Downunder]

Hi Geoff,

I am new to this forum as well. Like you I am familiar with the program and like you I came here in search of answers.

I used the search box looking for posts on materials lists. No help there. I opened up an old plan ticked all in material in the layer box. When I produced my materials list I had to reach for my pills!!!!!

So I tried another approach. I turned everything off with the intention of starting from the beginning. The video was an attempt at drawing this issue to the attention of Chief.

This is an issue that is very old and the comments are coming out of the woodwork. There is a discussion about Residential BIM you might find that interesting.

In my view pointing out flaws is a good thing and should not be confused with criticism. There are occassions when a post is obviously frustrated but generally it's constructive even if it focuses on the flaws.

I can tell you what I want and I can tell you what I do. I want Chief to fix the ML and we will continue to do our estimates the way we have done for years. Excel.

Your question is a good question and not too unreasonable . It may be better directed to Doug Park at post#114

Nice

[Justice]

So we don't overwhelm the Engineering team we should start with a priority list of things we need in ML.

I think HVAC and external plumbing and in floor including in wall plumbing pipes and fittings that are currently not calculating to the ML could be left out for now?

Yes items like floor slabs or all solid elements, components, that are built by Chief that appear or can be made to appear in the 3d building model are all good to look at in compiling a working list.

Fixing the floor slabs and footings is a good starting point for all of us.

Insulation wall calculations would line up with house wall wrappings or how do you guys take this off with ML now?

There is a problem with the ceiling Insulation here as not being able to delete the garage ceiling area?

I would like to be able to see a solid polyline automatically produced for insulation and other components. Then have the ability to see it in a 3d model and then edit the polyline to cut out areas I do not need and update the list as we edit parts.

Yes we can add our own polyline solids and edit them for now and we do have some items being produced in the 3d model such as wall & roof framing and other parts that can be edited.

We could have someone here build a small brick veneer timber frame site office 3d complete model with a floor slab, footings & framing for us all to take off a ML to see what results we get and what faults we find?

See if we can nut it out together?

BTW Aussies will need a metric model.

[ALAN MATHEWS]

In the components & ML fields I will type in the price column a price of 6.04 for instance and it keeps changing back to 6.40.
Can't get 6.04 to stick.
Am I doing something wrong. This happens only in some fields.

Doug
#4 Thanks for clarification on dragging columns. I am used to seeing curser changing or something to drag.
#3 When drawing molding pline it just lists as molding & goes to the int trim. I wish this could be selectable were this goes in the ML
Stair stringer, treads and riser listed in a lin ft as now I have to manually change this to calculate in ML

Item 1 seems clear to me.

Could you elaborate on 2 and 3. Specific needs please. My understanding of better and yours are probably not identical.

Item 4. You can already change the column widths by clicking and dragging the dividing line in spread sheet header.

[mkennedy]

kinda like the inventory management at home depot - if they run out of stuff they don't sell anymore, if it doesn't sell they don't reorder it, so they're always out of everything you want LOL