Quirky - that is what I am talking about

[fcwilt]

My point is to make the 2D tools better so I can more easily attain my goal.

That leads to some questions:

- What would it take in the way of better tools to meet your goals?

- What are the costs of developing those tools?

- Do enough CA users share those goals (or would enough new sales be generated) to justify the investment?

If the builder doesn't even try to find the tool, since he doesn't value the effort, I think that defines his dedication.

Perhaps the builder has found the balance and knows the tools he has, while not perfect, are sufficient for the task.

[Joe Carrick]

Going back on track, I'd really like to see some improvement on the 2D tools within CA. I hope people agree.

Johnny,

When I first started using Chief (Version 9) I had been using AutoCAD for about 15 years and way quite proficient with it. I struggled with Chief's 2D tools for a while but then I learned that for the most part I didn't need 2D CAD very much and when I did it was just recognizing that Chief's 2D tools worked differently and were actually designed more for use with Chief's 3D rather than instead of it.

Since then Chief's 3D has gotten better so that I rarely use anything but points (something I never used with AutoCAD) and sometimes a line or two just to make a Molding Polyline.

Learn to use Chief for 3D and you will hardly ever need the 2D.

[rongobong]

This has been an extremely interesting thread to read - I got sucked into it and read through all 13 pages. I come from an architectural background - have a master of architecture degree, worked in architectural firms using AutoCAD, and then moved to another state and got into the design-build remodeling industry. It was there that I was introduced to Chief Architect. My former colleagues heard the name and the Native American jokes began. However, I saw the program for what it was at the time - a much better 3D tool than AutoCAD's Architectural Desktop was. That program was horrible. Chief was a different way of thinking, but it worked a lot more intuitively.
The biggest issue I have with Chief is the same problem that Johnny describes - the 2D drawings aren't beautiful. That sounds pretentious, but most people with an architectural background are on the same page. Line weights are used to convey importance, depth, and clarity in a drawing. When you are doing redlines in AutoCAD for 8 hours a day, you begin to think in lineweights as you draw. Each line you draw has meaning, creates order, and is intentionally a certain weight. It's what makes a 2D drawing become 3D when you look at it. I wish the auto-generated Chief 2D drawings could implement that theory. The guy I worked for asked me why I didn't want to use different colors on my plots - make the electrical lines red, the walls green, and the windows blue. I almost barfed - to use color to signify importance on an architectural construction drawing - the horror! A good architect can use shades of gray and line weights to make even the most complex drawing easily understood. I think Chief Architect misses the boat on this concept, and it's a reality that I have had to come to terms with because the benefits of CA outweigh these issues for me. And I just don't have enough time to edit the automatic elevations to create the line weights I desire. However, I don't desire them just because it makes the drawing more beautiful - it's because it would make the drawing communicate better.
I think when it comes to the "crisp" argument, I've noticed that a line drawn with Chief Architect has a bullnose on each end, not a square edge. With heavier line weights, it makes the drawings look cartoon-like, and less crisp in my opinion.
Overall, I love Chief Architect and it makes my life easier. Maybe someday the lineweight issue will be addressed, or maybe not. Who knows? I will still be using CA, without a doubt.
Lastly, I do not design with CA, or any other CAD program for that matter. Every CAD program has its limitations or rules when it comes to drawing. A pen and paper are not limited by rules like "you can't have a curved back on a cabinet" or "a countertop cannot pass through a doorway" or the many other limitations that require me to think of a polyline solid workaround to make the 3D model look right. Once I have a concept, I put it in Chief - and then I test the 5 different roof options to see what looks best. Once it's in Chief though, there is no other program that is more powerful and user-friendly in my opinion.
Just my two cents...

[johnnyprc]

Here is how Vectorworks does it. See the 2D tools are part of the main screen, and there are several options that you can quickly select without having to enter a "settings" screen. Making the sections of 2D tools and their properties from "flyout" floating menus.

See attachment

[johnnyprc]

rongobong: A great post, well said.

I ended up paying for an upgrade to Vectorworks 2013, maybe CA will never do what I want and I have to draw 2D in another app. I saw that someone from CA was veiwing this thread, and seemed to be interested, so I can hope they make CA a complete package for my needs.

At this point I am only paying for 1 CA station, and if it was complete I would buy it for 3 more of our computers. Otherwise I will just do the 3D models on 1 system.

[johnnyprc]

rongobong: I have to mention the design you have on your website - I really like how you dealt with the "no-man's" land area so many bad designs have. Doing the Banqette with the tri-sided fireplace was a GREAT idea.

Sorry to get off-subject again, but I just had to mention that - and for everyone else I included a pic - with your permission to show it (let me know if you want me to remove it for any reason).

Not off subject is the fact that you do your concept designs by hand. You don't even use Chief for your concepts I noticed.

[rcole]

An example would be the Polyline tool in TurboCAD. Left click to start, left click to place additional points, and right click to bring up the close option that closes the Polyline.

If at any time you decide to undo a point placement, then right click and choose One Step Back. You can also transparently select or unselect the Ortho command in mid command as well.

Stop and think about how nice that would be if CA would give us a few tools of that caliber. I would not be posting here if I thought for one minute that the folks at Chief were not more than capable of doing this one better.

I have actually been thinking that it may be a good idea to start a new thread dedicated to a wish list for the type of CAD tools that Chief users would like to see. That way the folks at Chief could get a better feel for the specifics of what we would like.

[johnnyprc]

An example would be the Polyline tool in TurboCAD. Left click to start, left click to place additional points, and right click to bring up the close option that closes the Polyline.

If at any time you decide to undo a point placement, then right click and choose One Step Back. You can also transparently select or unselect the Ortho command in mid command as well.

Stop and think about how nice that would be if CA would give us a few tools of that caliber. I would not be posting here if I thought for one minute that the folks at Chief were not more than capable of doing this one better.

I have actually been thinking that it may be a good idea to start a new thread dedicated to a wish list for the type of CAD tools that Chief users would like to see. That way the folks at Chief could get a better feel for the specifics of what we would like.

I agree totally. It seems to me that the 2D tools would be fairly easy to add. As I have said in several posts, I believe CA is in striking distance to having hands down the BEST OVERALL CAD on the market. I think we all agree they have the best 3D BIM now.

[johnnyprc]

Example. Here is an example that people are asking for. This is from Sketchup. Notice how Sketchup places profile lines on the model that are correct. This is a sharp print (ive placed an image and PDF res best I can get for file size issue). CA would NOT have have the profile lines correct if printed from CA.

[fcwilt]

It seems to me that the 2D tools would be fairly easy to add.

Therein lies part of the problem - it can, of course, be done but it wouldn't be easy.

Look at the wishlist for CA. Then look at the "wishes" that have been granted over the years.

CA is a very complex program. Complex programs are easily broken if too many changes are attempted at once. Proper regression testing can take a very, very long time.

Things that seem easy to do usually aren't. If they were, many more "wishes" would have been granted by now.

[rcole]

The reason I brought up the 2D 3D connection earlier is that it appears to me that Chief has been doing some work in this arena.

I do not claim to know the inner workings of the program, but the new Pyramid tool looks very much like Prism, or Lofting tools in other 3D Solid modeling applications.

Another example of a simple, but effective tool is one of the AutoCAD line commands. Again, left click to place the first point, and left click to place additional points. In the end you have a series of unconnected lines in one smooth operation.

I do understand that CA has the Alt option, but that is a bandaid in my book and awkward to use at that. This to me is an example of how Chief has made tools that require the user to adapt to the program, rather than the program adapting to the user.

[rongobong]

Thanks for the kind words Johnny, I appreciate it! I drew the illustrative floor plans for the award competition, but the conceptual perspectives were original drawings to help the client envision what the design would look like. I often use Chief to block out my designs, print a line drawing 3D, and then overlay tracing paper to draw a sketch version, which I then color with markers. Clients respond very well to the result, and it allows me to take advantage of creating a perspective view without having to build it traditionally, as well as not having to put 100% of the detail into a Chief model - some elements can be drawn by hand.
However, my clients respond really well to multiple views of a project even better, and for this, hand drawing becomes too time consuming. I now use the watercolor with line drawing view more often because when you do take the time to model the project in 3D, it is easy to generate multiple views that would be too time-consuming if you were drawing by hand. It seems we've come full-circle and Chief is making it possible for us to move away from hand drawing to a computer-generated "sketch" that looks elegant to our clients. Attached is a recent set of concepts for a whole-house remodel we are working on. I only wish that the Chief perspectives had multiple line weights as you showed in the gorgeous arbor design you posted.

Cheers,
Rob

[johnnyprc]

rongobong: These are great designs! Don't you wish you could turn off some of the lines on the couch - all the lines for the variation in the fabric end up showing up as full lines. This is a good example then of my point, that we should have greater control over these lines - like in sketchup.

I mean these concepts are beautiful, but they would be even better with profile lines and getting rid of lines that CA is forcing into the model (couch fabric). I hope you realize I am critical of CA not the design.

[rongobong]

I agree Johnny, that is one of the more frustrating issues with the "line drawing" rendering option. There's no filter - all lines are drawn, and they are all drawn at the same line weight. The additional lines are distracting and it would be great if they could be turned off. Give me a heavier outline around the couch, a few lighter detail lines to express the shape of the couch cushions, and leave it at that. It would make the drawing much better. That goes for many other lines that are automatically generated, like where invisible walls meet other walls, or where roofs meet exterior walls - you get extra lines that should not be there.

[fcwilt]

rongobong: Don't you wish you could turn off some of the lines on the couch

I think there may be something wrong with the model of the couch

I tried several other furniture items and I don't see these lines.

What couch was that exactly?