Layout Linestyle Problem - X6

[Joe Carrick]

I'm finding that there's a difference between how Linestyles are presented in Layout.

If I draw a CAD Line - dashed - in Plan View and then send the view to layout it doesn't appear the same as the dashed lines that are part of the model (cabinets below countertops, etc).

I have "Use Linestye Scaling" selected for the Layout.

Can anyone tell me how to get consistent results with Linestyles? I hadn't noticed this problem in X5. Is it a new problem?

Note: I also sometimes get a message stating that the scaling is different than in the plan and that it can be corrected in the "Sheet Setup Dialog" but I don't find any place in that Dialog that would be relevant.

[gteacher]

Don't think you gave enough info. What scale did you send vs the scale of the view. AYK -- default view scale is generally 1/4" / ft. which is not noticeable because actual scale changes as you zoom in/out.

If you send to layout at a different scale and do not rescale the line weight accordingly (layout scaling disabled) , they will look out of proportion to the original. However Printing may be not be what you want if you do? Not sure if this is your problem -- need more info.

[Doug Park]

1) In your plan select "Drawing Sheet Setup" and set the scale to the same scale you plan to use in your layout.
2) Ensure that line weights are on.

[Joe Carrick]

Hi Doug,

OK, I wasn't changing the scale in the Plan View. I guess I just assumed that the model was in real world size and the scale was totally a "Send to Layout" requirement.

Does this mean that if I send one view to Layout at 1/4"=1' and another at 1/2"=1' (enlarged bath or Kitchen) that I need to change the Plan scale before sending to layout for each view?

[dshall]

Hi Doug,

OK, I wasn't changing the scale in the Plan View. I guess I just assumed that the model was in real world size and the scale was totally a "Send to Layout" requirement.

Does this mean that if I send one view to Layout at 1/4"=1' and another at 1/2"=1' (enlarged bath or Kitchen) that I need to change the Plan scale before sending to layout for each view?

I do not do this, Doug's post is a bit confusing. This is some important stuff and needs to be fully understood..... and then this is further confusing because Joe does not use "USE LAYOUT SCALING" something I do not use, and I believe there are others who do not use this. I believe those of us that do not use "USE LAYOUT SCALING" rely on the layer for line styles...........

"USE LAYOUT SCALING" is something that I do not use because of past issues, I am always willing to rethink my M.O., any thoughts from anybody on whether to use "USE LAYOUT SCALING"?

[perryh]

I also don't use layout line scaling b/c of past problems with it.

[dshall]

I also don't use layout line scaling b/c of past problems with it.

I wonder if Joe's issues would be resolved if he did not use it.

[gteacher]

I think what Doug was pointing out was that line weights are scaled in plan automatically if you turn on "line weights" -- However the problem arises in that they still may not be perceived if the line weight is below the threshold of the screen.

For example a 18 LW translates to a size of .336 in at a setting of 1 = 1/100 mm @48/1. this may not be viewable if you zoom out so the screen defaults to 1 pixel (settable in pref).-- In effect, you don't know what the weight really shows. This is compounded if you send the dwg to layout at a different scale, the line weights are rescaled but if line scaling is turned off, everything but the line weights are rescaled -- so again you have a skew. You have to consider both scaling and resolution. Printing adds another scaling factor since the printer has a higher resolution than the screen. Sometimes you again have to rescale for the printer (change line weight scale in layout) Two factors: line weight scale and screen scale in both layout and plan.

I find that line weights work as programed in all cases. Sooo I would look to settings or screen resolution.

[Joe Carrick]

Yes, this is further complicated by the fact that I don't generally use Layout Line Scaling. My problem in this situation is the length of dashes, etc in Layout. I think Doug's answer re setting the scale of the Plan before sending to Layout may solve it but I'm afraid that switching scale in the Plan may have an effect on all layouts, not just the one I'm currently sending.

I need to study this in more detail. Right now I'm getting ready to head for Palm Springs for a week. I'll do some more checking tomorrow.

[dshall]

Yes, this is further complicated by the fact that I don't generally use Layout Line Scaling. .......

Okay, so we are on the same page, then the answer may be to create a custom line style to meet your needs..... I have had to do that because I do not use "USE LAYOUT LINE SCALING".

[Doug Park]

This is concept has not changed much since introduced in version 10.

Line weights use a scaling factor. Out of the box this is set so that you can use industry standard line weights fairly easily. Line weights are generally specified in mm. Originally Chief was programmed so that line weight were specified in pixels. Of course this caused great grief if you went from a printer that printed at 300 DPI to one that printed at 600 DPI.

Had I been programming this from the start I probably would have made specification of line weights in mm. But you still have to deal with the issue of how a line weight is scaled as you zoom in and out so that you get accurate WYSYWIG views. And there is also the use case of wanting to print things scaled for a Check Plot where it is necessary to scale the lines smaller to retain the detail.

What we did was create a scaling factor and make it so that when you print at the scale specified in the drawing sheet setup you got lines at a scale that you expect. We chose to keep the integer values and out of the box set them to be 1/100 of a mm. So a 0.18 mm line has a weight of 18 and so forth.

In order to make it possible to see how your line weights will look before you send to layout we added the ability to set the scaling for the view you are working in. This also makes it possible to reasonable to scale prints from the floor plan view. In Imperial plans this defaults to 1/4 in = 1 ft. If you send to layout at this scale what you see in plan will match what you see in layout and when you print your layout at 1:1 scale for the layout the 1/4 in = 1 ft will be the scale of the layout box.

This works great until you then decide to send a plot plan at say 1/8 in = 1 ft. To handle this case we added the layout line weight scale option, which is the default, and you probably almost always want to use this option. This option scales the lines so that the 1/8 in = 1 ft layout box and the 1/4 in = 1 ft layout box will produce lines on your print out at the same weight. So a line weight of 18 will produce a line that is 0.18 mm wide at both scales. If you don't use this then when you print a line weight of 18 will produce a line that is 0.9 mm wide in the 1/8 in = 1 ft layout box and the 1/4 in = 1 ft layout box will produce a line that is 0.18 mm wide assuming your plan remains at a constant 1/4 in = 1 ft scale. This is useful in a very small number of cases, but usually not desired.

To recap.

In plan.

1) Set your line weight scale to 1/100 mm unless you really want to specify them in other units. A few people like to specify line weights in inches.
2) Set your drawing scale to the scale that you want for previews. Usually this is probably the scale that you will send your floor plan views to layout at. Details have their own separate scaling so you can choose differently for each if you want.
3) When you send to layout choose the scale you want, it will default to your plan scale. Unless you understand why you want to change it always make sure that "Use Layout Line Scaling" is checked.
4) Leave the scaling in your plan view constant. While it may not reflect accurately how your plot plan will look in layout, changing it can change how your floor plan will look.
5) Always leave the layout sheet scaling at 1:1. Creating check plots at different scales can be accomplished at print time so the cases where you might want to change this are extremely rare.

I hope that helps.

[dshall]

I appreciate Doug's explanation. But let me say, (and please correct me if I am wrong), but if we do not use "USE LAYOUT SCALING", we can still obtain the line weight we want via the line size in the LAYER DISPLAY OPTIONS. Let me say that again, I believe we have as much control of the LINE WEIGHT via the layer display options. IOW, the LDO controls the line wight for any view sent to layout (via an ANNO SET/LAYER SET). This is great.

The only problem that does come up is the LINE STYLE (the length of dashed lines etc.). If we do not use the "USE LAYOUT SCALING", then we must be cognizant of what particular LINE STYLE (size of dashes for a dashed line) we use.

I am not saying that using "USE LAYOUT SCALING" is a bad idea, I am sure it works for many users...... oh heck, I barely know my name..... why am I talking about this stuff.

So why not use "USE LAYOUT SCALING"? I forgot, but I just remember I had some issues with it several years ago, maybe I should explore this again.

I think I remember why I do not use "USE LAYOUT SCALING", because I did not notice the difference. I think some users explained to me several years ago that it worked for them, but it did not work for me.

This post might be a bunch of horse pooh, but I think it is always worthwhile revisiting topics.

[perryh]

I use different lineweights in plan view vs plot plan view, and for each different layerset so when I send to layout it is constant and I have more control. Although It would be nice to just use layout line scaling, for some reason we determined it didn't work back then and never revisited it.
I'll take another look when I get some free time.

[Joe Carrick]

Lot's to think about - it isn't in any way intuitive and Gerry's explanation left me scratching my head and burying my fists in my eyes. I just wish I could set in in the Plan and have it be the same in Layout WYSIWYG or have a way to edit line styles and weights in Layout.

[dshall]

I use different lineweights in plan view vs plot plan view, and for each different layerset so when I send to layout it is constant and I have more control. Although It would be nice to just use layout line scaling, for some reason we determined it didn't work back then and never revisited it.
I'll take another look when I get some free time.

I did a video here.

http://youtu.be/N6xgcln1yNI

After doing the vid, I still do not think I will use "USE LAYOUT SCALING", I think the decision to use it is a personal decision, not sure what is the best way.

Nuts, the static in the video started about 4 minutes in, I guess I have to go back to pc to do videos.... just another crappy thing I have to deal with..... I am so fed up with having to stand on one leg and hop around in a counter clockwise direction to do anything..... hey, if you are thinking about going to mac, I am not sure I can recommend it....... frustrating...... I should not have to think about this crap........