comparing CAX4 with 20/20

[Philco]

I am not seeking to put the cat amongst the pigeons, but as a prospective customer of both of these applications, I would really appreciate an experienced and balanced professional opinion.

I intend to use the chosen app. for interior design - mostly kitchen interiors, and custom cabinetry.

I am also a bit annoyed that CAX4 is only available as a 32 Bit application, when purchased as the Interior i.e. not the 64 Bit, Premier version. Is this a valid concern?

Thank you in advance, for your time and thoughtfulness.

Phil
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[dgavin]

Phil,

If you rep cabinet lines and need instant pricing then 20-20 would be useful. If on the other hand you need more flexibility in design then Chief would be better. You can make any type of cabinet you want in CHief but there is no back end support as in 20-20. As a remodeler I need to be able to design other things besides kitchens and baths and need Chief for that purpose. I get my cabinets priced out from my suppliers.

[lbuttery]

X4 as 32-bit is not an issue unless you will have large plans or plans with high detail that will approach the 2 GB limit of 32-bit

20/20 and Chief are different animals

some use both

use chief for design and then order with 20/20

or sit with client and decide on order and then design in chief

Lew

[Philco]

many thanks Dennis. We are a custom cabinet shop, so every kitchen/cabinet is different.

[Joe Carrick]

Note that Chief doesn't do automatic details of cabinets - I believe that 20/20 may have that capability - but you need to check that yourself.

[MarkMc]

I'm a kitchen designer I do fairly detailed projects even with the semi custom lines I work with. I also handle a full custom line of cabinets. I need good final drawings, I need good renderings.

I have x4 interiors, 2020, and Envisioneer. I've used 2020 for almost 12 years (so I'm better at it), Chief for almost a year (put a lot of effort into it). I have sporadically used Envisioneer. My SSA is due early December and I'm off of 2020 support for a year now. Currently deciding who to pay in the future. Note that while I have 2020 V9 I use V8.1 and took 9 off the machine last year Put it back with the last Envisioneer update, then took it off again after a month.

Pros and cons
Stability x4 wins hands down, no contest, knock out.

Ease of use/learning curve 2020 is easier to learn has fair keyboard support. x4 takes more effort, super keyboard support. Once designs get complicated I give the nod to x4, just.

Cabinet Pricing- 2020 wins if the catalog is good. Catalogs are dependent on the mfg though. The only time I have been willing to trust it is for the few mfg who accept 2020 files directly or who's online system can interface with it. To me it's nice to get quick ball park pricing but not critical.

Rendering (basic)- 2020 is easier to navigate. Renderings pop up in a separate window, easier to throw to a second monitor when sitting with a client than having an extended desktop. It is easier to adjust the viewpoint when in a rendering.
I would give the edge to 2020 for color rendering quality with the least work. Truly high quality renderings I'd give the nod to chief but it is more work by a lot.

Renderings- editing projects and variations- Chief wins. You can change colors and textures and door styles incredibly quickly on the fly. There are more choices for color texture. There is no lag when editing in any view. It is far easier to develop custom textures. 2020 has a nasty habit of locking up or crashing when editing with an open rendering.

Accurate cabinetry representation Both fail at some point when it comes to accurately representing cabinets though I give the edge to 2020. If you use the "design plus: catalogs and or have a good collection of mfg catalogs it is possible to do a lot of things in 2020 faster, easier, and more accurately represent cabinet modifications and details.
BUT you give up pricing completely.

Some would argue this. At some point it is always possible in x4. At some point it is more work, and/or you end up in CAD which then does not translate back to 3D views.
Places where x4 falls down-Tall doors with intermediate rail, Extended ears, extended sides, side panels with drawerheads, clipped corners, varied reveals top and bottom with consistent rails and stiles, obstruction cutouts, combined cabinets represented as a single cabinet. You will also find some cabinets have to be built from others or from scratch. That can also happen in 2020 just not as often.

Counters and cabinet trim Easier at a basic level in 2020. Moldings depend heavily on the catalog when it comes time to edit them. There are plenty of frustrations there though. Overall x4 give more control over moldings, just a bit harder to learn.

Working drawings I'd give the nod to Chief- (slightly see below). Working in layouts is much more flexible, easy to learn. Generating and adjusting orthographic views is faster and more flexible.
2020 has layout templates that a more restricted and require a fair bit of set up. See Envisioneer at end.

Dimensions Again CA has a slight edge it has more choices and some decent work arounds. 2020 has a nasty habit of losing "user dimensions" However getting x4 dims don't snap to cabinet parts in most cases. I spend a lot of time editing out unwanted dimensions when making manual dimensions.

Room Environment Cheif wins, it's a building program. You can have whatever you want for windows, doors, moldings, lights. 2020 is weak here. However for room accessories, countertop items 2020 is easier. The upcoming SU import in 2020 v10 will impove all of that except windows doors and room moldings.

Support Cheif, no contest. Support is less expensive and far superior. This forum and the folks here are also a godsend.

Envisioneer with 2020 EV is a lot like Cheif. Not as easy, not as good. But it can directly import 2020 files from V9 or higher. There was a big glitch in the original release but that is taken care of. Support there is also excellent.
EV adds the ability to generate CAD editable elevations (which can be done in EV in CA you need the full version not Interiors) EV allows you to dimension cabinet parts. You also now have better control over the room environment than 2020 allows. If EV were nearly as good and easy as x4 then the answer would be simple. But it is not.

Finally there is development. The target market for 2020 is kitchen designers, that's it. Despite their failings (many) whatever they develop is for that market. It appears to me that kitchens are somewhere down the list for CA. Yes they listen and respond nicely. I just don't see it as a primary concern for them. I don't think it will become one despite the fact they have the NKBA seal of approval and go to KBIS. Most of the new features in x4 for cabinets don't work in a way that I find useful (frameless, full overlay for instance) The cabinetry module is to me the weakest part of x4.

So I too am in a quandary of where to put my money...trying to decide if I'm going to continue SSA on x4 or use the money to go back to 2020 and hope for the best with v10.

In a perfect world I'd combine the strengths of all 3. 2020 for cabinets, cabinet details, appliances, and renderings; x4 for rooms, ease, stability, editing, flexibility and layout; dimensions as a combination of x4 and EV. Sometimes I think of just going to CAD...then again I learned with a pencil and they never crash, backups are cheap.

Last thought... If I had it to do over again I'd get Chief Premier not Interiors.

[Gene Davis]

If I was in the biz of selling kitchen and bath installations, and building all the cabs, I would use Chief Premiere X4 and eCabinets.

eCabs is free, but its support and training isn't. It will absolutely handle anything in cabinetry you can dream and build, and it's output is used in high end CNC shops and also the most basic saw shops.

Produce everything for the client with Chief, and use eCabs for production.

[carpenterguy]

I will have to agree completely with what Gene said.

Andy.

[nddp]

ProKitchen is another option. They give you a discount for having CA, they realize the expense of having 1 cad program let alone 2. Has a slight learning curve but still just as useful

[Philco]

Wow! Thank you very much for your very comprehensive, and helpful answer. i very much appreciate your assistance. Thanks, and best regards. Phil

[Philco]

Thank you all very much for your comments. This is a place to come for education...
phil

[jonathank]

Phil,

Are you a custom cabinet shop where you build your own cabinets, or do you order your
cabinets from a cabinet company?

If you're a custom cabinet shop where you build your own, I don't think 20/20 is what
you're looking for.

We use to order from a fully custom cabinet company in Washington State, and we used
Cabinet Vision for all our quoting stuff for them. And from what I understand, on their
end of it, it allowed them to get all the sizes of all the components for each cabinet.

You could certainly use CA for all your renderings and pretty drawings, and then use
Cabinet Vision for your quoting.

[Philco]

Many thanks, Jonathan. We are a custom manufacturing shop (Victoria, BC). Our plan is to use CA to provide our clients with an easier visual assessment of our in-house designs. We don't send our designs to be priced-up by anyone.

We use Cabnetware for our manufacturing. We are thinking of using CA purely for aesthetic purposes.

Thanks for your comments above. Phil

[Max]

For me I found I could do everything I needed for cabinets in Chief. Once I had a scheduled appointment with a client, I took a laptop with Chief loaded and sat down with my client(s) to design the kitchen with them looking on. It was never necessary to make the extreme details as they were always overwhelmed just to see the components in place and visualize what before was only abstract. I never lost a sale once I was in the door.

The rest is a matter of perception. I could print the floor plan of the cabinets layout and calculate the cost with pencil and paper faster than running it all through a cabinet program. Same with a cut list. My vote is Chief for the presentation which none compare to. Guess my "old school" is showing here.

[rickhead]

For me I found I could do everything I needed for cabinets in Chief. Once I had a scheduled appointment with a client, I took a laptop with Chief loaded and sat down with my client(s) to design the kitchen with them looking on. It was never necessary to make the extreme details as they were always overwhelmed just to see the components in place and visualize what before was only abstract. I never lost a sale once I was in the door...My vote is Chief for the presentation which none compare to.

As a remodel centric GC this is how I do it as well - except for the design process. I like to schedule a 'discovery' meeting, measure existing layout, take pictures, ask questions, go back to the office and draw those existing conditions. Then I remodel the project in Chief and schedule a followup meeting for quick edits and fine tuning. With 29(?) lines of cabinet/component catalogs available in Chief I've never had a problem displaying a client's vision. Maybe not an exact match, but definitely a starting point and something to run with. If it's still not quite there...I turn it over to one of my favorite NKBA certifieds.

Starting with Envisioneer at the 2.0 release and staying with them until 6.0 (didn't upgrade to 7.0 last year), dabbling with BH&G (CA lite-lite) for a while before jumping headlong into X2 a couple of years ago, without a doubt Chief's options for cabinet editing blows Envisioneer out of the water.

As a side note, I've never used 20/20.