Design vs. engineering question

[lbuttery]

I think Richard is right on

Yep...

I have suggested to clients that an engineer was needed or probably needed and they have refused to use one

I turned down those jobs...

Lew

[Alaskan Son]

I have a feeling most of you guys are building completely different types of homes than we are up here. 90% of what we build up here is under 3,000 sq. ft. I would say 75% is under 2,500 sq. ft.

Half is under 2,000 sq. ft. Probably half of those are ranches and the vast majority of the other half is 2 story. By default, all exterior walls are 2 x6 fully sheeted and fastened for sheer (no sheet the corners and wrap it with chicken wire like in some of California), everything is 16"OC, headers are almost always oversized, hurricane straps on all trusses, and we almost never do anything fancy. No cantilevers over 2 feet, no roof overhangs over 2 ft, and almost always on an 8" crawlspace foundation.

Anything that falls outside those parameters usually does have engineers involved.

I can however agree with Richard and some of the rest of you about the lack of oversight. Responsible contractors seem to be few and far between, and outside Anchorage (which is really the only highly regulated area I work in) independent inspectors are hired for $1,200-$1,500 per house, and what they do is minimal.

Thanks for all your input on my question everyone although it seems this post has taken on a life of its own. Have a good day!

[geocoy]

My two cents for what is worth on the subject.
When I decided to start using Chief to design homes and remodeling, the first thing I did was go to the county planning and building department. I wanted to know clearly what I was permitted to do and not get into trouble legally. They gave me a copy of the county ordinance for building two storie single family homes and light commercial structures in the county (outside the cities).
The ordinance spells everything out in detail how single famliy homes are to be constructed. The ordinance doesn't say it but they are defining load limits by telling you what materials to use.
It also tells you that you can design renovations in light commericial structures as long as the designs do not involve load limits or saftey to public. If your designs go beyond these parameters it has to be done by a register engineer. I am sure there are some more detailed parameters, I am generalizing a little.
I also checked with the state licensing and the state law tells me I can not say I perform architectural or engineering functions or lead people to believe I am engineer or use words like design in my advertisments unless I am a licensed architect or an engineer. So in affect the ordinance is my parameters for what I can do with Chief. I think I am safe in saying I can draft and illustrate plans, but beyond that I have to be careful.
So my point is, the county where you are working should / may have similar ordinaces that spell out exactly what you can do and where the engineer has to do the final designs.
I hope this helps, and let me know if you think I mis-stated anything here.

[Alaskan Son]

geocoy,

That's good information and it doesn't seem you mis-stated anything. Checking with the local laws is a very good place to find out what the "industry standard" should be. Thanks!

[eblcody]

Richard
Yours is the the voice of experience here!

However, just because you don't need the plans and engineering to get a permit, doesn't mean they shouldn't be done. I have had a number of occasions where the examiner caught something I missed, and I'm happy to have a trained pair of eyes looking over my plans. It reduces my liability. The scariest thing I can imagine, both for myself and my clients, would be to have no oversight, and just trust myself and the contractors to "do it right." Yes, it would be enjoyable for the first couple of years, but then as problems started showing up, along with the lawyers, it would get less fun.

We did not use engineers or have plan review in Wyoming either... all was fine until the area of growth expanded from off the river rock into expansive soils... Man did the builders and developers get an education on the importance of engineers, it hit family, friends, and clients hard condemned & broken houses, broken families and friendships and of course legal action was the result!
It scares me......

[RMorrison]

Well, Eldon, sounds like you have a stronger and more experienced voice on this than I do! Thanks for this.

[portrait]

Hello,
Sorry for interrupting and please excuse my illiteracy, but i need to be enlightened about the situation. Couldn't read all replies under this thread, but please correct me if i'm wrong. Isn't a structural project calculated and prepared by a civil engineer necessary to get a construction permit in the States? If so, how can a designer or an architect design the framing and how can they be sure that it's safe?
I'm also curious about the mechanical and electrical systems. Aren't mechanical and electrical projects necessary for the permit? If so, who makes them?

[Alaskan Son]

H.Ozgur Girisken,

I'm not sure about the rest of the states, but in Alaska the requirements are decide by the local city/municipality/etc. I assume its the same elsewhere in the country. Its an overall rule that you must follow certain building codes, but as far as engineering is concerned, the requirements are all over the board. Where I am, when engineering is required its usually only structural and environmental (sewer/septic/well/etc.) I mostly only do residential work, but I'm not sure I've ever seen any electrical or plumbing engineering required. Again, we're just "required" to stick to the code. This would bring us back to the "who oversees it?" question.

[Joe Carrick]

In the USA, Architects are licensed to provide all Engineering - Structural, Electrical and Mechanical.

For most commercial projects the Architect will elect to hire separate engineers for each of those. In some cases he may even do that for a single family residence and will usually do so for anything over 2 stories - particularly multifamily - but depending on the level of comfort that a particular Architect has with any of these he may do it all himself.

Also, many Architectural Firms are composed of both Architects and Engineers.

[portrait]

Thanks, these were really satisfying answers.
Joe, anyway i'm not sure if an architect can really be an expert at all of these branches even when designing a two-storey single family house. If authorities think so, then they must be!

[lbuttery]

Geocoy:

well said

the fun comes when you work in an area like Washington DC metro area
which also includes MD and VA and 8+ counties and every one of those jurisdictions has different rules
even tho they are all using IRC and IBC

BUT with local modifications

trying to stay familiar with all that is FUN !!!

So far my partner and I have never had a permit set rejected (batting 1000!!!)


Lew

[Joe Carrick]

As an Architect in California I am fully qualified. I can (and do) provide Structural and Electrical Engineering calculations as well as Plumbing and Mechanical System sizing.

As a Builder I often do everything except Concrete, Masonry and Stucco work.

Perhaps it's just that I get a great deal of satisfaction in doing the work myself, but the meaning of the word "Architect" is "Master Builder" and that's the way I think. I was thinking in "3D" long before we had Computers and I helped my uncle build my parents house when I was just 14 years old.

Before that my younger brother and I built a 3 story tree house in a large oak tree on the hill behind our home. That was the only project I ever did that had no engineering and no permit

My professional career was primarily involved with Hospital and other Medical Facilities until 1980. Since that time I have been mostly doing smaller commercial/residential mixed use projects and custom homes. IAE, I make it my business to know everything that is involved in the actual construction of each and every building I design.

[Alaskan Son]

the meaning of the word "Architect" is "Master Builder" and that's the way I think.

For some architects this may be true, but as a builder I can assure you it is not usually true. I don't mean to offend, but there are some brilliant ideas that architects/engineers with no field experience come up with that just don't work.

One detail I really like is the multiple A35s attached to I joist blocks. Ever try to put 6-12 nails into the bottom cord of an I joist?

[Joe Carrick]

Michael,

I don't know what Architects you have worked with, but if that's typical for them then I would say "that's not a normal Architect". In fact, if they have no field experience they shouldn't IMO be licensed. Being an Architect is not about just being artistic - it's about understanding ALL about construction as well. What you described I would consider to be more like a Junior Draftsman or a Junior Plan Checker.

[MTH]

[QUOTE=sutcac;392297]
I guess I'm a little baffled as to why there is such a seeming conundrum about where the designer leaves off and the engineer begins. The dividing line is pretty clear, at least as far as the lawyers are concerned


Well, the most interesting thing for me is that I had to look up "conundrum" in the dictionary. Engineering isn't a problem but, I do appreciate the new word..