Design vs. engineering question

[Alaskan Son]

"I will do my job diligently and not "fret" about being sued"

Thank you Lew. this is my stand on the liability issue as well.

[gteacher]

Alaskan Son

Reading your posts – you seem to well aware of how to handle the division between designer/engineer. I am being presumptive (I’m paid to do that) but your question is: “What is everyone else doing?” and the definite answer is: “everything else you can imagine”. Reference the other 50+ posts

Even knowing what everyone else is doing would provide no usable information – is it just curiosity?

When the codes were under the control of the building industry–way back when-the designer/engineer relationship was more clearly defined. Now that the codes have been politicized, there are as many varieties as there are municipalities in the US.

The plan examiner is required to establish a reasonable record that sufficient information has been provided to establish that the presumptive method has been followed. A competent designer can do this. Outside of the presumptive method, an architect/engineer’s complete review and stamp is required – period. The designer is not mentioned in any code/legislation that I am aware of.

As a licensed Engineer and independent code official, I can say that some of the worst plans I have seen come from nationally known design firms. Most are just a plan schematic and pretty pictures. It is very hard to tell a new home owner that the $800-$1200 plans they purchased are been rejected because of lack of info. That why we have this problem.

If designers would simply provide the info needed to verify the prescriptive code, municipalities would not require varying degrees of engineering approval. This includes All materials, dimensions, sizes, bracing compliance, flows, etc.

My suggestion is to simply set down with your local plans examiners and find out what their problems and concerns are. This would provide clear direction. If you are designing out-of-your-area a call to that locality would help. What everyone else is doing is irrelevant.

I would like to hear from the examiners on this subject and what their problems are-although it’s already been beat to death. I think that would be more productive as to who needs to do what.

[Alaskan Son]

"Even knowing what everyone else is doing would provide no usable information – is it just curiosity?"

Gerry,

No, its not curiosity. Its more that I would like to adopt the industry standard (to the extent that I feel I can). I have however discovered that there is no industry standard. I think I will adopt the practice of doing as little "engineering" as possible. I'll provided the intent, and they can provide the rest.

[RMorrison]

Gerry,
These are good points. I think in Michael's case, though, sitting down with the plans examiner, may be fruitless, because it appears that like many jurisdictions in the country, they may have very little to no oversight of the construction and have widely ranging engineering requirements. There are parts of the country, of course, where little more than a "napkin sketch" will get you a building permit.

However, just because you don't need the plans and engineering to get a permit, doesn't mean they shouldn't be done. I have had a number of occasions where the examiner caught something I missed, and I'm happy to have a trained pair of eyes looking over my plans. It reduces my liability. The scariest thing I can imagine, both for myself and my clients, would be to have no oversight, and just trust myself and the contractors to "do it right." Yes, it would be enjoyable for the first couple of years, but then as problems started showing up, along with the lawyers, it would get less fun.

[marty]

The subject of examiners and building standards is an interesting one. Down here in NZ which is smaller than a lot of the states in the US we have a single National Building Code but it is interpreted differently all over the country. Its also interpreted differently within parts of the same city. THis problem seems to exist world over and the chances of reaching agreement must be nil, zip zero.

Our houses are generally smaller than the US - average around 2,400ft2 - and for that it takes around 34 A3 size drawings to get a permit. About half of that information is standard manufacturers installation information which should not be required but if its not supplied the application gets rejected.

THe general attitude is that the more drawings that are supplied the higher the chance of the building being built properly but the reality is if a builder doesnt know what he is doing you could give him 1000 drawings and he wouldnt be any better off.

[gteacher]

Richard

Can't argue with Dat

Gerry

[perryh]

I think Richard is right on.

[lbuttery]

I think Richard is right on

Yep...

I have suggested to clients that an engineer was needed or probably needed and they have refused to use one

I turned down those jobs...

Lew

[Alaskan Son]

I have a feeling most of you guys are building completely different types of homes than we are up here. 90% of what we build up here is under 3,000 sq. ft. I would say 75% is under 2,500 sq. ft.

Half is under 2,000 sq. ft. Probably half of those are ranches and the vast majority of the other half is 2 story. By default, all exterior walls are 2 x6 fully sheeted and fastened for sheer (no sheet the corners and wrap it with chicken wire like in some of California), everything is 16"OC, headers are almost always oversized, hurricane straps on all trusses, and we almost never do anything fancy. No cantilevers over 2 feet, no roof overhangs over 2 ft, and almost always on an 8" crawlspace foundation.

Anything that falls outside those parameters usually does have engineers involved.

I can however agree with Richard and some of the rest of you about the lack of oversight. Responsible contractors seem to be few and far between, and outside Anchorage (which is really the only highly regulated area I work in) independent inspectors are hired for $1,200-$1,500 per house, and what they do is minimal.

Thanks for all your input on my question everyone although it seems this post has taken on a life of its own. Have a good day!

[RMorrison]

Well, Eldon, sounds like you have a stronger and more experienced voice on this than I do! Thanks for this.

[portrait]

Hello,
Sorry for interrupting and please excuse my illiteracy, but i need to be enlightened about the situation. Couldn't read all replies under this thread, but please correct me if i'm wrong. Isn't a structural project calculated and prepared by a civil engineer necessary to get a construction permit in the States? If so, how can a designer or an architect design the framing and how can they be sure that it's safe?
I'm also curious about the mechanical and electrical systems. Aren't mechanical and electrical projects necessary for the permit? If so, who makes them?

[Alaskan Son]

H.Ozgur Girisken,

I'm not sure about the rest of the states, but in Alaska the requirements are decide by the local city/municipality/etc. I assume its the same elsewhere in the country. Its an overall rule that you must follow certain building codes, but as far as engineering is concerned, the requirements are all over the board. Where I am, when engineering is required its usually only structural and environmental (sewer/septic/well/etc.) I mostly only do residential work, but I'm not sure I've ever seen any electrical or plumbing engineering required. Again, we're just "required" to stick to the code. This would bring us back to the "who oversees it?" question.

[Joe Carrick]

In the USA, Architects are licensed to provide all Engineering - Structural, Electrical and Mechanical.

For most commercial projects the Architect will elect to hire separate engineers for each of those. In some cases he may even do that for a single family residence and will usually do so for anything over 2 stories - particularly multifamily - but depending on the level of comfort that a particular Architect has with any of these he may do it all himself.

Also, many Architectural Firms are composed of both Architects and Engineers.

[portrait]

Thanks, these were really satisfying answers.
Joe, anyway i'm not sure if an architect can really be an expert at all of these branches even when designing a two-storey single family house. If authorities think so, then they must be!

[lbuttery]

Geocoy:

well said

the fun comes when you work in an area like Washington DC metro area
which also includes MD and VA and 8+ counties and every one of those jurisdictions has different rules
even tho they are all using IRC and IBC

BUT with local modifications

trying to stay familiar with all that is FUN !!!

So far my partner and I have never had a permit set rejected (batting 1000!!!)


Lew