Design vs. engineering question

[lbuttery]

I never want an engineer on the job site

Thane:

Interesting ...

this is why Michael posted the original query

to find out how others proceed with their work flow

Bottom line it all depends

Lew

[Gene Davis]

I'm a structural engineer and I wear a disguise when going on a jobsite. Either Miss Piggy or the Big Bad Wolf.

I never let an architect or designer on one of my jobsites. Total ban.

[RMorrison]

I never let an architect or designer on one of my jobsites. Total ban.

Just remember that while you're at the jobsite, they're at the golf course with your client.

[sutcac]

I never let an architect or designer on one of my jobsites. Total ban.

This has to be one of the silliest things I've ever read on this forum.

[Thane Pearson]

Nothing against engineers. My degree is in architectural engineering. I've had engineers send clients into panic over nothing. And proven to be nothing by independent engineers.

[marty]

This has been an interesting discussion to read through.
With New Zealand being a reasonably high earthquake risk area (Witness Christchurch recently) engineering is part of almost every job.

I used to do a lot of detailing off engineers sketches and then get them signed off but I now think that approach blurs the lines of liability and get the engineer to design and detail all engineered components so there is no confusion.

My Client contract states that my Fees exclude any "specific engineering design".

[Alaskan Son]

Marty,

Thank you. It sounds like you've confirmed what a couple of the other guys said.

It seems maybe the smartest thing to do is stop short of doing any engineering details at all. Don't step on anyone's toes, avoid the liability, and isn't it actually illeg..
I mean against the...
Er...frowned upon for an engineer to stamp something he/she didn't draw up?

Seriously though, all you engineers and architects out there, is my understanding correct? Are you permitted to stamp something (assuming its drawn correctly) if you didn't draw it up? Where is that line drawn legally?

I really do appreciate everyone's input on this. I know its a touchy subject and its easy to offend or be offended (especially when being corrected). I've also learned that being corrected (even when it initially feels like an offense) is one of the best ways to learn.

[lbuttery]

Are you permitted to stamp something (assuming its drawn correctly) if you didn't draw it up? Where is that line drawn legally?


Michael:

they don't have to draw it, but it does have to be drawn under their direct supervision.

scenario 1:
a drafter (employee or independent) sitting in the same office
given instructions on what to draw

hould be fine unless it could be proven that their was no
supervision

scenario 2:
a drafter (employee or independent) working at home via the internet
given instructions on what to draw

very questionable unless there is a proven record of supervision

with one engineer we worked with who was near retirement (old school)
he would create the hand drawing and then we would re-do it in chief
he would then review it and sign it

this allowed us to show the same cad detail from the various points of view
(left.ight,front,back,top,bottom)

he would do one drawing and we could have 6 drawings in the permit set
or we could do cross-sections etc

I kept the original drawing(s) and all the emails
at the end he printed and signed the final PDF's (sent vie email)
and we then added his pages to our pages (sent via courier)

as needed, we would annotate our pages giving a callout to his pages

Lew

[DM_Davis]

Is that what makes those Architect fees so high?

[moak]

I agree Bryce.
...probably no mirrors either

[IRISH]

Very well said Rich!

[Alaskan Son]

Very well said Rich!

Agreed! Thanks Rich.

[perryh]

I never let good looking women on my job sites, too distracting

[gawdzira]

Hello Michael,

I take my plans through the design development and anything beyond the diagrammatic wall sections gets drawn by my engineer. I show details as they relate to dimensions but the connection details are stamped by the engineer.

When you live in California you like to spread the liability around.

I have worked in both fashions where the engineer does all of his drawings or that I will make the structural plans and have him mark them up and review my drawings after placing his red marks on the drawings. If the project is really small I will do the mark up version. If it is any larger than about 300 s.f. of space to be engineered I will let him do all the drawings. This is to simplify the exchange of drawings and to avoid errors.

The cost for engineering is always separate from my fee.

Alan

[Alaskan Son]

Alan,

Thank you. You also have directly addressed the question, and I appreciate the response. Hows Carmel? We used to spend a fair amount of time in Carmel and Monterey when I was a teenager. Has it changed much over the years?
Was thinking of taking my family to the aquarium there one of these days.

Lived in Hayward for a little while too Richard. Not very much like Carmel.