Design vs. engineering question

[Thane Pearson]

never had that problem and I never want an engineer on the job site.
I also work in the safest area of the country for earthquakes.

[lbuttery]

I never want an engineer on the job site

Thane:

Interesting ...

this is why Michael posted the original query

to find out how others proceed with their work flow

Bottom line it all depends

Lew

[RMorrison]

You probably aren't fully understanding what I'm saying because it seems you are a licensed architect and don't have to regularly outsource all engineering. Its something you've worked hard for I'm sure, but as a builder there are lines we have to understand. You are probably more likely to draw up everything you possibly can because it falls under your responsibility. I'm not licensed to be responsible for engineering so I don't want to take it any further than I have to. Especially because an engineer has to go over the plans anyway.

Michael,
Well, if you're stating that an engineer is going to be involved in any case, then that is different. You seemed to imply that engineers were only brought in when the local codes required it, and that you really didn't need or want specific engineering details, which struck me as being irresponsible for a builder in your region. If I've misunderstood, then I apologize.

I usually hire (or actually let the client hire directly) structural engineers when it gets too tedious. (Mostly second-story additions and hillsides.) In earthquake country around here, the calculations are often over 50 pages, sometimes WAY over 50 pages. In these cases, the structural engineer will do his own drawings. I just don't want the liability.

[Alaskan Son]

Richard,

Thank you. You were partly right, just not in understanding my question. Alaska is interesting. I do work in a [B]very[B] wildly ranging place in the country as far as engineering and climate is concerned. For the most part when I work in Anchorage, engineering is a must and is the standard practice. 1 hour away where I live in Wasilla, residential engineering is almost unheard of. Since I moved here in 2004 I have never worked off of, or even seen an engineered set of residential plans. The good part is, its in a lower seismic zone, and most homes are simple enough to frame using prescriptive methods.

[sutcac]

I find it interesting that there seems to be such concern about a client having to pay for professional structural engineering when that engineering, even here in earthquake-prone California, is such a small percentage of construction costs. In most cases, in my experience, this engineering (limited to residential work) runs something like 0.5% to, only in the most extreme circumstances maybe 2% of the total cost of construction. And that includes ALL of the structural drawings, details, and specifications done by the engineer. I just provide CAD backgrounds for floor plans, sections, and elevations.

If a client balks at this, the job isn't likely worth your time or liability whether you're a designer, builder, engineer, or architect.

I guess I'm a little baffled as to why there is such a seeming conundrum about where the designer leaves off and the engineer begins. The dividing line is pretty clear, at least as far as the lawyers are concerned. And as Richard has often pointed out, the leading source of liability claims against architects are not structural issues, but water damage.

[Alaskan Son]

Bryce,

Thank you for your response. You answered my question perfectly. It sound like you supply the layouts and elevations and you have an engineer do the rest. It seems there is no "industry standard". This is my first project where my contract included design work. In the future I'll just stipulate that I stop after all layouts and elevations are complete and the engineer can have it from there (unless of course he/she needs more info).

[eblcody]

Ok....Yikes!

1 hour away where I live in Wasilla, residential engineering is almost unheard of. Since I moved here in 2004 I have never worked off of, or even seen an engineered set of residential plans. The good part is, its in a lower seismic zone, and most homes are simple enough to frame using prescriptive methods.

And the Geo-tech engineering?

[Gene Davis]

I'm a structural engineer and I wear a disguise when going on a jobsite. Either Miss Piggy or the Big Bad Wolf.

I never let an architect or designer on one of my jobsites. Total ban.

[Thane Pearson]

Nothing against engineers. My degree is in architectural engineering. I've had engineers send clients into panic over nothing. And proven to be nothing by independent engineers.

[marty]

This has been an interesting discussion to read through.
With New Zealand being a reasonably high earthquake risk area (Witness Christchurch recently) engineering is part of almost every job.

I used to do a lot of detailing off engineers sketches and then get them signed off but I now think that approach blurs the lines of liability and get the engineer to design and detail all engineered components so there is no confusion.

My Client contract states that my Fees exclude any "specific engineering design".

[RMorrison]

I never let an architect or designer on one of my jobsites. Total ban.

Just remember that while you're at the jobsite, they're at the golf course with your client.

[DM_Davis]

Is that what makes those Architect fees so high?

[Alaskan Son]

Marty,

Thank you. It sounds like you've confirmed what a couple of the other guys said.

It seems maybe the smartest thing to do is stop short of doing any engineering details at all. Don't step on anyone's toes, avoid the liability, and isn't it actually illeg..
I mean against the...
Er...frowned upon for an engineer to stamp something he/she didn't draw up?

Seriously though, all you engineers and architects out there, is my understanding correct? Are you permitted to stamp something (assuming its drawn correctly) if you didn't draw it up? Where is that line drawn legally?

I really do appreciate everyone's input on this. I know its a touchy subject and its easy to offend or be offended (especially when being corrected). I've also learned that being corrected (even when it initially feels like an offense) is one of the best ways to learn.

[lbuttery]

Are you permitted to stamp something (assuming its drawn correctly) if you didn't draw it up? Where is that line drawn legally?


Michael:

they don't have to draw it, but it does have to be drawn under their direct supervision.

scenario 1:
a drafter (employee or independent) sitting in the same office
given instructions on what to draw

hould be fine unless it could be proven that their was no
supervision

scenario 2:
a drafter (employee or independent) working at home via the internet
given instructions on what to draw

very questionable unless there is a proven record of supervision

with one engineer we worked with who was near retirement (old school)
he would create the hand drawing and then we would re-do it in chief
he would then review it and sign it

this allowed us to show the same cad detail from the various points of view
(left.ight,front,back,top,bottom)

he would do one drawing and we could have 6 drawings in the permit set
or we could do cross-sections etc

I kept the original drawing(s) and all the emails
at the end he printed and signed the final PDF's (sent vie email)
and we then added his pages to our pages (sent via courier)

as needed, we would annotate our pages giving a callout to his pages

Lew

[Rich Bach]

Michael:

I appreciate your line of thinking, and questioning. As a design/ builder, I sympathize.

When you ask a question, some never miss the opportunity to pounce with overwrought rhetoric and opinion. Perhaps valuable, perhaps not so much. I chuckle when people ascribe motives to others in haste, with decided lack of knowledge of the particulars involved. What else do they make similar errors on ?

I'm writing to offer an additional perspective. Profitability.

As a builder 'just getting into design work', I'll recommend that you monitor your first few projects where you perform the design/ drafting/ drawing with Chief. Since you probably wear many 'hats' as conductor of the build process, what will be the 'sweet spot' for you working with Chief through that process ? That will be the intersection of time best spent, satisfaction/ reward, and profitability. Chief is such a powerful design and sales tool. Drafting of numerous CAD details, which an engineer may already have, may not be profitable.

Additionally, experience has shown me that the better engineers - the ones you want to work with - are creative. Creative in the sense that they realize there may be easier or simpler ways to accomplish things with materials and labor, and that you as the builder/ conductor of the process have a key role to perform in controlling those 'means and methods'. Developing trust and rapport with a creative engineer is invaluable; it will increase your satisfaction, and enhance profitability.

With custom design/ build, quite obviously each project will be different. That rapport with a good engineer will serve you well. Usually in a preliminary review, you both can chart a course for the project that increases efficiency and makes for a better workflow.

I also appreciated your question because within it, I recognized an issue that often comes up on a custom project. Generally stated, how to deploy resources to create the best design, the strongest and most durable building(s), within a budget the owner can work with. The client's trust is placed in you. They approached you as a builder of trust, not an architect or engineer. You 'drive the bus'. You are the 'conductor' of the orchestra. Bringing the project home to a succesful conclusion is on your shoulders, with all that entails. Find, and collaborate with, those design and engineering professionals that you can work with effectively, in the ways that work to the strengths of each party involved. You build a trusted 'business team' that 'goes' with you from project to project.

Rich