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Thread: Design vs. engineering question
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04-05-2011, 09:35 AM #1Registered User Promoted
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Design Vs Engineering
My two cents for what is worth on the subject.
When I decided to start using Chief to design homes and remodeling, the first thing I did was go to the county planning and building department. I wanted to know clearly what I was permitted to do and not get into trouble legally. They gave me a copy of the county ordinance for building two storie single family homes and light commercial structures in the county (outside the cities).
The ordinance spells everything out in detail how single famliy homes are to be constructed. The ordinance doesn't say it but they are defining load limits by telling you what materials to use.
It also tells you that you can design renovations in light commericial structures as long as the designs do not involve load limits or saftey to public. If your designs go beyond these parameters it has to be done by a register engineer. I am sure there are some more detailed parameters, I am generalizing a little.
I also checked with the state licensing and the state law tells me I can not say I perform architectural or engineering functions or lead people to believe I am engineer or use words like design in my advertisments unless I am a licensed architect or an engineer. So in affect the ordinance is my parameters for what I can do with Chief. I think I am safe in saying I can draft and illustrate plans, but beyond that I have to be careful.
So my point is, the county where you are working should / may have similar ordinaces that spell out exactly what you can do and where the engineer has to do the final designs.
I hope this helps, and let me know if you think I mis-stated anything here.geocoy
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04-05-2011, 09:45 AM #2Registered User Promoted
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geocoy,
That's good information and it doesn't seem you mis-stated anything. Checking with the local laws is a very good place to find out what the "industry standard" should be. Thanks!Michael
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04-05-2011, 11:10 AM #3Windows 7
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Richard
Yours is the the voice of experience here!
However, just because you don't need the plans and engineering to get a permit, doesn't mean they shouldn't be done. I have had a number of occasions where the examiner caught something I missed, and I'm happy to have a trained pair of eyes looking over my plans. It reduces my liability. The scariest thing I can imagine, both for myself and my clients, would be to have no oversight, and just trust myself and the contractors to "do it right." Yes, it would be enjoyable for the first couple of years, but then as problems started showing up, along with the lawyers, it would get less fun.
It scares me......ELDON
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04-02-2011, 04:11 PM #4
Geez, I cant understand why your question was so difficult for people to address. You are engaging the services of an engineer. You want to know how much of the drawings are your responsiblity and how much are his. My suggestion, have a meeting with your engineer and decide between you what works the best for your situation, or what he expects from your drawings.
Rod Kervin
Kervin Home Design
Courtenay BC
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04-02-2011, 04:18 PM #5Registered User Promoted
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Rod,
Thank you, that would be e great place for me to start.Michael
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04-02-2011, 04:46 PM #6Windows 7
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Micheal
You did make it clear that you were going to use an engineer!
Did you read that Richard?ELDON
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04-02-2011, 05:52 PM #7
Eldon,
This is what he said: "I just think most details neither my subs nor myself need to see on plans. Its only local codes that require those details and ask for an engineers stamp"
Whether the OP draws the details or the engineer draws the details is between the OP and the engineer. The point is that in an area of high seismic risk, any builder who believes that he and his subs don't really need any of that detailed engineering is putting the public at greater risk.Richard
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04-02-2011, 07:01 PM #8Rod Kervin
Kervin Home Design
Courtenay BC
p. 250-871-0316
If a picture is worth a thousand words, and a video is worth a thousand pictures, then uploading the chief file is worth a thousand videos.
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04-02-2011, 07:04 PM #9Registered User Promoted
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Richard,
I made the above statement that you quoted based on what I believe is required of general design work. As far as general design work is concerned, a house can be built from basic layouts and elevations. My point was not that I don't think we need engineering. My point was that at some point it stops being a designers responsibility and becomes an engineers responsibility. I was just concerned about charging my client fairly. I don't want to take a whole lot of extra time drawing up details when it should rightly fall under the responsibilities of an engineer.
You probably aren't fully understanding what I'm saying because it seems you are a licensed architect and don't have to regularly outsource all engineering. Its something you've worked hard for I'm sure, but as a builder there are lines we have to understand. You are probably more likely to draw up everything you possibly can because it falls under your responsibility. I'm not licensed to be responsible for engineering so I don't want to take it any further than I have to. Especially because an engineer has to go over the plans anyway.Michael
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04-02-2011, 04:24 PM #10My question is, how far do you as a designer take the plans before passing them to an engineer?
Ooops, I should say I eschew ordering truss calcs and Title-24 until engineering comes back.... those items are typically a formality.
Did I answer your question?D. Scott Hall (The Bridge Troll)
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04-02-2011, 04:47 PM #11
Michael:
I am a designer/drafter and do plans for builders and remodelers and occassionaly homeowners who are acting as their own GC
I can't and won't sign/submit permits
Usually the client wants the "minimal" done to get the county to grant the permit
for some counties this is very minimal, for others there are more requirements
many states allow us to create our pages and then the engineer/architect will create their pages, if needed
we combine as one package, and the client signs/submits the permit set
our contract states that we are NOT architects or engineers and that the client is responsible
for ensuring that the structural aspects of the design are proper
our contract states that every line on our drawings is there per the specs and direction of the client
tho in practice, we do create drawings and they are suppose to review them
our contract states that if the client prints the permit set then they have reviewed it and found it acceptable
the architects/engineers will only sign/stamp the parts/pages they create they do not sign/stamp our pages
some states will not allow us to work in this manner as EVERY page must be created/signed/stamped by the architect/engineer
in those states we can only do concept designs for 2D and 3D
and not create any permit sets at all
LewLew Buttery
Castle Golden Design - "We make dreams visible"
Lockport, NY
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04-02-2011, 05:08 PM #12Registered User Promoted
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Scott and Lew,
Your answers are both very helpful. Thank you for understanding my question. I'm sure over time I'll figure out how it works best around here, its just nice to have an idea of how everyone else is doing it.Michael
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04-02-2011, 06:16 PM #13Windows 7
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Alaskan son,
I like that name! Welcome!
You did not start the Builder "aint" using no Engineer discussion, there have been many heated discussions in the past.
Perhaps it started when some residential builder new to the forum asks something like "What does an architect actually do" or "What good are Architects"? something like that.... This is where the discovery of just how many Architects are using Chief, is disclosed.... And this is where we as builders discover just how ignorant we really are... About everything... including "Who is your daddy" type of stuff... :Sly:
I would not want to embarrass any Architects here by disclosing their names but I have befriended one or two... They are actually, not so bad... I am grateful for their advice and experience!
But, come on Richard....Yeah, sure you do... There's nothing like years of cutting and nailing wood to give someone an accurate idea of how a structure will perform in an earthquake.
Crap that! Your obviously the one that has not used a Residential Engineer in Alaska, Colorado or Wyoming?ELDON
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04-02-2011, 07:09 PM #14
Scott has it right. Complete the drawing with details and calcs. Refer to engineer to verify and recommend options or additional notes. The engineer may not understand your intent without a complete plan. Autodesk doesn't help with engineering or construction docs to any better degree than Chief or other cad drafting programs.
Last edited by Thane Pearson; 04-02-2011 at 07:12 PM.
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04-02-2011, 07:18 PM #15
never had that problem and I never want an engineer on the job site.
I also work in the safest area of the country for earthquakes.Last edited by Thane Pearson; 04-02-2011 at 07:20 PM.
Thane Pearson CPBD, AIBD, LEED AP
Thane Pearson Design
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