Design vs. engineering question

[lbuttery]

I'm assuming most of you guys are either designers, or builders (not architects or engineers or you would be using AutoDesk products).


This is not a good assumption....


There are many architects and engineers who use chief

Lew

[Alaskan Son]

I'm assuming most of you guys are either designers, or builders (not architects or engineers or you would be using AutoDesk products).


This is not a good assumption....


There are many architects and engineers who use chief

Lew

I stand corrected. Please accept my apologies. My thinking has been swayed by Autodesk users and resellers.

[sherpa_jones]

Geez, I cant understand why your question was so difficult for people to address. You are engaging the services of an engineer. You want to know how much of the drawings are your responsiblity and how much are his. My suggestion, have a meeting with your engineer and decide between you what works the best for your situation, or what he expects from your drawings.

[Alaskan Son]

Rod,

Thank you, that would be e great place for me to start.

[dshall]

My question is, how far do you as a designer take the plans before passing them to an engineer?

I finish the plans with all details, beam sizes, shear walls..... everything that I think the engineer is going to require..... not a nail is left off..... not a holdown is missed.... a retaining wall is detailed....... shear transfers are on the plans....... ledger sizes and lag screws spec'd out......... He then reviews and makes adjustments...... i.e. an extra holdown or increase size of beam etc.

Ooops, I should say I eschew ordering truss calcs and Title-24 until engineering comes back.... those items are typically a formality.

Did I answer your question?

[eblcody]

Micheal

You did make it clear that you were going to use an engineer!
Did you read that Richard?

[lbuttery]

Michael:

I am a designer/drafter and do plans for builders and remodelers and occassionaly homeowners who are acting as their own GC

I can't and won't sign/submit permits

Usually the client wants the "minimal" done to get the county to grant the permit

for some counties this is very minimal, for others there are more requirements

many states allow us to create our pages and then the engineer/architect will create their pages, if needed

we combine as one package, and the client signs/submits the permit set

our contract states that we are NOT architects or engineers and that the client is responsible
for ensuring that the structural aspects of the design are proper

our contract states that every line on our drawings is there per the specs and direction of the client

tho in practice, we do create drawings and they are suppose to review them

our contract states that if the client prints the permit set then they have reviewed it and found it acceptable

the architects/engineers will only sign/stamp the parts/pages they create they do not sign/stamp our pages

some states will not allow us to work in this manner as EVERY page must be created/signed/stamped by the architect/engineer

in those states we can only do concept designs for 2D and 3D
and not create any permit sets at all

Lew

[Alaskan Son]

Scott and Lew,

Your answers are both very helpful. Thank you for understanding my question. I'm sure over time I'll figure out how it works best around here, its just nice to have an idea of how everyone else is doing it.

[RMorrison]

Micheal

You did make it clear that you were going to use an engineer!
Did you read that Richard?

Eldon,
This is what he said: "I just think most details neither my subs nor myself need to see on plans. Its only local codes that require those details and ask for an engineers stamp"

Whether the OP draws the details or the engineer draws the details is between the OP and the engineer. The point is that in an area of high seismic risk, any builder who believes that he and his subs don't really need any of that detailed engineering is putting the public at greater risk.

[eblcody]

Alaskan son,
I like that name! Welcome!

You did not start the Builder "aint" using no Engineer discussion, there have been many heated discussions in the past.

Perhaps it started when some residential builder new to the forum asks something like "What does an architect actually do" or "What good are Architects"? something like that.... This is where the discovery of just how many Architects are using Chief, is disclosed.... And this is where we as builders discover just how ignorant we really are... About everything... including "Who is your daddy" type of stuff... :Sly:
I would not want to embarrass any Architects here by disclosing their names but I have befriended one or two... They are actually, not so bad... I am grateful for their advice and experience!

But, come on Richard....

Yeah, sure you do... There's nothing like years of cutting and nailing wood to give someone an accurate idea of how a structure will perform in an earthquake.

Crap that! Your obviously the one that has not used a Residential Engineer in Alaska, Colorado or Wyoming?

[sherpa_jones]

Whether the OP draws the details or the engineer draws the details is between the OP and the engineer. The point is that in an area of high seismic risk, any builder who believes that he and his subs don't really need any of that detailed engineering is putting the public at greater risk.

Then I would also say that whether the OP's crew follows the engineering specs to the letter or assembles the house with duct tape is between the OP and the OP's crew as well, and perhaps the building inspector.

[Alaskan Son]

Richard,

I made the above statement that you quoted based on what I believe is required of general design work. As far as general design work is concerned, a house can be built from basic layouts and elevations. My point was not that I don't think we need engineering. My point was that at some point it stops being a designers responsibility and becomes an engineers responsibility. I was just concerned about charging my client fairly. I don't want to take a whole lot of extra time drawing up details when it should rightly fall under the responsibilities of an engineer.

You probably aren't fully understanding what I'm saying because it seems you are a licensed architect and don't have to regularly outsource all engineering. Its something you've worked hard for I'm sure, but as a builder there are lines we have to understand. You are probably more likely to draw up everything you possibly can because it falls under your responsibility. I'm not licensed to be responsible for engineering so I don't want to take it any further than I have to. Especially because an engineer has to go over the plans anyway.

[Thane Pearson]

Scott has it right. Complete the drawing with details and calcs. Refer to engineer to verify and recommend options or additional notes. The engineer may not understand your intent without a complete plan. Autodesk doesn't help with engineering or construction docs to any better degree than Chief or other cad drafting programs.

[eblcody]

We love you anyways Richard... ya grumpy ol duffer!

[lbuttery]

Complete the drawing with details and calcs. Refer to engineer to verify and recommend options or additional notes. The engineer may not understand your intent without a complete plan.

Thane:

Hmmm...

any engineer worth his license would not want to use another's drawings

the engineers I worked with did site visits and made their own drawings
they used mine for "guidance of intent" only

Lew