Design vs. engineering question

[Alaskan Son]

I'm assuming most of you guys are either designers, or builders (not architects or engineers or you would be using AutoDesk products). I'm a builder who is just getting into design work. I've been building off plans drawn on "napkins" or plans drawn by others for years now. I'm happy to say I'm changing that.

My question is, where do you draw the line between design and engineering?

I plan on pricing any necessary engineering as an allowance item, but I want to be fair with where I draw the line. Should I draw up foundation details, wall details etc. during the design process, or should this be something I let the engineer do? What about framing details?

I just think most details neither my subs nor myself need to see on plans. Its only local codes that require those details and ask for an engineers stamp, so in my mind I should only need to draw up the basics.

Any input as to how the rest of you handle this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[RMorrison]

Living in an earthquake-prone area, the contempt you seem to have for proper engineering -- only if the local code requires it -- is frankly surprising and disturbing. You seem to have a very short memory regarding the destruction. Try: http://goo.gl/3LwOH to refresh your memory.

[Alaskan Son]

Richard,

I don't have contempt for it. It doesn't really bother me too much (although as much framing as I've done over the years I think I have a pretty good idea of whats required without engineering stamps). I just want to charge properly for the engineering portion.

I have the freedom of letting the engineer take care of whatever I want, and pass that directly on to the client and cal it "engineering fees", but I would like to stick with "industry standard" and take care of whatever portion I should be taking care of myself, which is why I'm asking you you guys.

[Tommy Blair]

I have the freedom of letting the engineer take care of whatever I want, and pass that directly on to the client and cal it "engineering fees", but I would like to stick with "industry standard" and take care of whatever portion I should be taking care of myself

I would strongly recommend having an Engineer stamp all plans or at least review it. There is a liability issue here. A stamp would be good. You say "I have the freedom of letting the engineer take care of whatever I want". Well yes and no. An Engineer is going to engineer the structural, such as framing and foundation. If that Engineer is signing off or stamping the plan, you HAVE to go with what he calls for or you do always have the option of using a different Engineer. Some foundation companies will use their own Engineers for the foundation just like truss companies. I'm pretty good at guessing what our Engineer wants 90% of the time but bottom line is, He makes all final calls if he's stamping the plan.

[Alaskan Son]

Richard,

On a side note. Look at the link you sent me. Of all the non roadway structures you see, how many of them do you honestly believe would have been better off with some added hold downs or sheer walls? I've witnessed the aftermath of one fairly large earthquake here in recent years that struck the interior portion of Alaska (which is fairly rare). Almost no damage at all in an almost totally unregulated area.

Most of the damage is caused by water, falling/opening ground, failing roadway structures or a combination of the above. In the link you provided you can see plenty of buildings still basically in one piece but in a bad area.

[Alaskan Son]

Tommy,

I'm not sure you fully understand my question. I plan on having the plans engineered, and engineered properly and as fully as necessary.

My question is, how far do you as a designer take the plans before passing them to an engineer? When I said "I have the freedom of letting the engineer take care of whatever I want" I was only referring to how far I take the plans The potential problem I want to avoid is having my client pay extra for something I should have included in my design price.

[Tommy Blair]

While the plan is being designed, if you see something that might be in question to how it's going to be engineered, then you should bring it up to the client or even consult an engineer before you talk to the client. In alot of our remodels, we have the Engineer go out to the job for review once we know what the client wants and he'll give us options.

[RMorrison]

It doesn't really bother me too much (although as much framing as I've done over the years I think I have a pretty good idea of whats required without engineering stamps).

Yeah, sure you do... There's nothing like years of cutting and nailing wood to give someone an accurate idea of how a structure will perform in an earthquake.

[Alaskan Son]

Yeah, sure you do... There's nothing like years of cutting and nailing wood to give someone an accurate idea of how a structure will perform in an earthquake.

I just believe I've done enough of the same thing (off engineered plans) over and over again to know what is required. I'm sorry if I've offended you.

[gteacher]

I hope I don’t speak for Richard, but I don’ think there is any intent here to offend anyone.

With proper respect to your years of experience, that only gives you knowledge of what everyone else has done in the past. Unless you have done the structural calculations and understand the background behind the presumptive design of the building codes, you won’t understand under what conditions a structure is stable. You don’t need an engineering degree to make these calcs, they are fairly simple and well documented. The only difference is that the engineer if forced to verify the design as a condition of his stamp.

I don’t know a lot about earthquake design but do know something about wind loads and design. There is no question that hurricane straps, nails and wall bracing will mitigate high wind damage and lower insurance costs—that is something that wasn’t commonly done in the past – based on experience. Note that we are using lighter weight materials now, which requires more caution. My only point here is that someone knowledgeable has to be held responsible. The old: ”I always did it this way in the past” is a big negative in our industry and the primary reason for the regulatory nightmare in Florida and other states.

If you feel that you are just as capable of making these cals, I say no problem – only that you do. Do them and be responsible. A good book(s) to use is “Minimum Design Loads for Buildings and other Structures” or " Wood Frame Construction manual for Family Dwellings" by ASCE and AWC.

[rcole]

This is a question that you will probably have to answer for yourself in the long run.

Actually working with an engineer in producing the documentation is a new ballgame with each engineer you will work with. You will have to learn how to adapt to the methods the engineer prefers to use.

The fact that you are learning how to use what to you is new technology goes a long way to answering your own question.

Some are more than fine with a napkin, others just want to provide enough detail to get the permit approved. Then there are those who strive to produce the best product, or service they can provide.

My bet is that a year from now you will be providing more detail drawings than you had previously imagined, and thinking of ways to do even more.

[Alaskan Son]

Gerry,

Thanks for you tactful response.

I'm not sure anyone is really understanding what I'm asking though. Its not a question of to engineer or not to engineer, not even a question of whether or not I'm qualified to do the calcs myself.

The question is...When performing professional design services (especially with Chief which is not an engineering program), where do you think a designers plan drawing responsibilities should end, and the engineers plan drawing responsibilities begin?

[adamjedgar]

since all of you guys are working for a CLIENT why in gods name dont you ask the client what they want?

most of my clients dont want the hassle of chasing up additonal engineering drawings and paperwork...if they did, i would not have been approached to do the work in the first place!

you guys argue about some of the dummest things these days!

if you are a project homebuilder, you have your answer already.
if you are a small one man show, ask your concretor if he can build a foundation with "napkin foundation plans"

[Alaskan Son]

rcole,

Thank you! I'm taking it that in your experience it just varies. Being that I haven't been the one drawing the plans before I wasn't sure if most designers just hand over the layout and elevations, or draw up all the details too.

I have a particular client right now who I'm doing an addition for. I included the design work in my fixed price. The engineering I included as a variable allowance item. I didn't foresee all the areas where the two would overlap each other, and I'm in position now where I just don't want to take advantage of the situation. I also don't want to do more design and layout work then is typically done by a designer.

Thanks again for any input.

[gteacher]

adamjedgar

most of my clients don't want the hassle of chasing up additional engineering drawings and paperwork.

That's why we have this problem. Home owners don't want the the hassle until a storm blows their roof off. Then they just can't understand why they didn't get a proper design in the first place. The whole purpose and history of the building codes is due to the fact that home owners don't understand the consequences of their decisions.

Michael

My point was that there are no clear limits of responsibility other than the legal responsibility of the engineer. The designer is responsible to engage a competent engineer. The Engineer is responsible to fill in any omissions by the designer. Both are required to communicate to the degree necessary for each job. It doesn't really matter who does what - just that it gets done and both are responsible for that.

In practicality, it a matter of efficiency, the more the designer can do , based on his experience, the less a engineer will have to do and the lower the cost. It's different with each firm and within each firm. Depends on the experience of the individuals.