Design vs. engineering question

[Alaskan Son]

I'm assuming most of you guys are either designers, or builders (not architects or engineers or you would be using AutoDesk products). I'm a builder who is just getting into design work. I've been building off plans drawn on "napkins" or plans drawn by others for years now. I'm happy to say I'm changing that.

My question is, where do you draw the line between design and engineering?

I plan on pricing any necessary engineering as an allowance item, but I want to be fair with where I draw the line. Should I draw up foundation details, wall details etc. during the design process, or should this be something I let the engineer do? What about framing details?

I just think most details neither my subs nor myself need to see on plans. Its only local codes that require those details and ask for an engineers stamp, so in my mind I should only need to draw up the basics.

Any input as to how the rest of you handle this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[RMorrison]

Living in an earthquake-prone area, the contempt you seem to have for proper engineering -- only if the local code requires it -- is frankly surprising and disturbing. You seem to have a very short memory regarding the destruction. Try: http://goo.gl/3LwOH to refresh your memory.

[Alaskan Son]

Richard,

I don't have contempt for it. It doesn't really bother me too much (although as much framing as I've done over the years I think I have a pretty good idea of whats required without engineering stamps). I just want to charge properly for the engineering portion.

I have the freedom of letting the engineer take care of whatever I want, and pass that directly on to the client and cal it "engineering fees", but I would like to stick with "industry standard" and take care of whatever portion I should be taking care of myself, which is why I'm asking you you guys.

[Tommy Blair]

I have the freedom of letting the engineer take care of whatever I want, and pass that directly on to the client and cal it "engineering fees", but I would like to stick with "industry standard" and take care of whatever portion I should be taking care of myself

I would strongly recommend having an Engineer stamp all plans or at least review it. There is a liability issue here. A stamp would be good. You say "I have the freedom of letting the engineer take care of whatever I want". Well yes and no. An Engineer is going to engineer the structural, such as framing and foundation. If that Engineer is signing off or stamping the plan, you HAVE to go with what he calls for or you do always have the option of using a different Engineer. Some foundation companies will use their own Engineers for the foundation just like truss companies. I'm pretty good at guessing what our Engineer wants 90% of the time but bottom line is, He makes all final calls if he's stamping the plan.

[Alaskan Son]

Richard,

On a side note. Look at the link you sent me. Of all the non roadway structures you see, how many of them do you honestly believe would have been better off with some added hold downs or sheer walls? I've witnessed the aftermath of one fairly large earthquake here in recent years that struck the interior portion of Alaska (which is fairly rare). Almost no damage at all in an almost totally unregulated area.

Most of the damage is caused by water, falling/opening ground, failing roadway structures or a combination of the above. In the link you provided you can see plenty of buildings still basically in one piece but in a bad area.

[Alaskan Son]

Tommy,

I'm not sure you fully understand my question. I plan on having the plans engineered, and engineered properly and as fully as necessary.

My question is, how far do you as a designer take the plans before passing them to an engineer? When I said "I have the freedom of letting the engineer take care of whatever I want" I was only referring to how far I take the plans The potential problem I want to avoid is having my client pay extra for something I should have included in my design price.

[Tommy Blair]

While the plan is being designed, if you see something that might be in question to how it's going to be engineered, then you should bring it up to the client or even consult an engineer before you talk to the client. In alot of our remodels, we have the Engineer go out to the job for review once we know what the client wants and he'll give us options.

[RMorrison]

It doesn't really bother me too much (although as much framing as I've done over the years I think I have a pretty good idea of whats required without engineering stamps).

Yeah, sure you do... There's nothing like years of cutting and nailing wood to give someone an accurate idea of how a structure will perform in an earthquake.

[Alaskan Son]

Yeah, sure you do... There's nothing like years of cutting and nailing wood to give someone an accurate idea of how a structure will perform in an earthquake.

I just believe I've done enough of the same thing (off engineered plans) over and over again to know what is required. I'm sorry if I've offended you.

[rcole]

This is a question that you will probably have to answer for yourself in the long run.

Actually working with an engineer in producing the documentation is a new ballgame with each engineer you will work with. You will have to learn how to adapt to the methods the engineer prefers to use.

The fact that you are learning how to use what to you is new technology goes a long way to answering your own question.

Some are more than fine with a napkin, others just want to provide enough detail to get the permit approved. Then there are those who strive to produce the best product, or service they can provide.

My bet is that a year from now you will be providing more detail drawings than you had previously imagined, and thinking of ways to do even more.

[gteacher]

I hope I don’t speak for Richard, but I don’ think there is any intent here to offend anyone.

With proper respect to your years of experience, that only gives you knowledge of what everyone else has done in the past. Unless you have done the structural calculations and understand the background behind the presumptive design of the building codes, you won’t understand under what conditions a structure is stable. You don’t need an engineering degree to make these calcs, they are fairly simple and well documented. The only difference is that the engineer if forced to verify the design as a condition of his stamp.

I don’t know a lot about earthquake design but do know something about wind loads and design. There is no question that hurricane straps, nails and wall bracing will mitigate high wind damage and lower insurance costs—that is something that wasn’t commonly done in the past – based on experience. Note that we are using lighter weight materials now, which requires more caution. My only point here is that someone knowledgeable has to be held responsible. The old: ”I always did it this way in the past” is a big negative in our industry and the primary reason for the regulatory nightmare in Florida and other states.

If you feel that you are just as capable of making these cals, I say no problem – only that you do. Do them and be responsible. A good book(s) to use is “Minimum Design Loads for Buildings and other Structures” or " Wood Frame Construction manual for Family Dwellings" by ASCE and AWC.

[Alaskan Son]

Gerry,

Thanks for you tactful response.

I'm not sure anyone is really understanding what I'm asking though. Its not a question of to engineer or not to engineer, not even a question of whether or not I'm qualified to do the calcs myself.

The question is...When performing professional design services (especially with Chief which is not an engineering program), where do you think a designers plan drawing responsibilities should end, and the engineers plan drawing responsibilities begin?

[tmunson]

Gerry,

Thanks for you tactful response.

I'm not sure anyone is really understanding what I'm asking though. Its not a question of to engineer or not to engineer, not even a question of whether or not I'm qualified to do the calcs myself.

The question is...When performing professional design services (especially with Chief which is not an engineering program), where do you think a designers plan drawing responsibilities should end, and the engineers plan drawing responsibilities begin?

To me it is obvious. I have not read through all of the treads yet so I may be repeating someone else. Most areas now use the IRC (International Residential Code). As long as your design is within the prescriptive path of that code you can design it. In many cases I'm not required in my state (Washington) to have an engineer involved (this does vary throughout the state, some jurisdictions always require an engineer's stamp and calc.). When I do need an engineer I send him what I have and he not only checks my calcs but determines what needs to be done to those parts of the design that fall outside the prescriptive path of the IRC. I know right away when I'm working on a project for someone when an engineer will need to be involved. It is important that you know the IRC and any other code requirements adopted by the jurisdiction where the project is located.

Good luck with your new business. You have using a great product in CA.

Author of Learning Chief Architect Step By Step

[gteacher]

adamjedgar

most of my clients don't want the hassle of chasing up additional engineering drawings and paperwork.

That's why we have this problem. Home owners don't want the the hassle until a storm blows their roof off. Then they just can't understand why they didn't get a proper design in the first place. The whole purpose and history of the building codes is due to the fact that home owners don't understand the consequences of their decisions.

Michael

My point was that there are no clear limits of responsibility other than the legal responsibility of the engineer. The designer is responsible to engage a competent engineer. The Engineer is responsible to fill in any omissions by the designer. Both are required to communicate to the degree necessary for each job. It doesn't really matter who does what - just that it gets done and both are responsible for that.

In practicality, it a matter of efficiency, the more the designer can do , based on his experience, the less a engineer will have to do and the lower the cost. It's different with each firm and within each firm. Depends on the experience of the individuals.

[Rich Bach]

Michael:

I appreciate your line of thinking, and questioning. As a design/ builder, I sympathize.

When you ask a question, some never miss the opportunity to pounce with overwrought rhetoric and opinion. Perhaps valuable, perhaps not so much. I chuckle when people ascribe motives to others in haste, with decided lack of knowledge of the particulars involved. What else do they make similar errors on ?

I'm writing to offer an additional perspective. Profitability.

As a builder 'just getting into design work', I'll recommend that you monitor your first few projects where you perform the design/ drafting/ drawing with Chief. Since you probably wear many 'hats' as conductor of the build process, what will be the 'sweet spot' for you working with Chief through that process ? That will be the intersection of time best spent, satisfaction/ reward, and profitability. Chief is such a powerful design and sales tool. Drafting of numerous CAD details, which an engineer may already have, may not be profitable.

Additionally, experience has shown me that the better engineers - the ones you want to work with - are creative. Creative in the sense that they realize there may be easier or simpler ways to accomplish things with materials and labor, and that you as the builder/ conductor of the process have a key role to perform in controlling those 'means and methods'. Developing trust and rapport with a creative engineer is invaluable; it will increase your satisfaction, and enhance profitability.

With custom design/ build, quite obviously each project will be different. That rapport with a good engineer will serve you well. Usually in a preliminary review, you both can chart a course for the project that increases efficiency and makes for a better workflow.

I also appreciated your question because within it, I recognized an issue that often comes up on a custom project. Generally stated, how to deploy resources to create the best design, the strongest and most durable building(s), within a budget the owner can work with. The client's trust is placed in you. They approached you as a builder of trust, not an architect or engineer. You 'drive the bus'. You are the 'conductor' of the orchestra. Bringing the project home to a succesful conclusion is on your shoulders, with all that entails. Find, and collaborate with, those design and engineering professionals that you can work with effectively, in the ways that work to the strengths of each party involved. You build a trusted 'business team' that 'goes' with you from project to project.

Rich