Design vs. engineering question

[eblcody]

Micheal

You did make it clear that you were going to use an engineer!
Did you read that Richard?

[RMorrison]

Micheal

You did make it clear that you were going to use an engineer!
Did you read that Richard?

Eldon,
This is what he said: "I just think most details neither my subs nor myself need to see on plans. Its only local codes that require those details and ask for an engineers stamp"

Whether the OP draws the details or the engineer draws the details is between the OP and the engineer. The point is that in an area of high seismic risk, any builder who believes that he and his subs don't really need any of that detailed engineering is putting the public at greater risk.

[sherpa_jones]

Whether the OP draws the details or the engineer draws the details is between the OP and the engineer. The point is that in an area of high seismic risk, any builder who believes that he and his subs don't really need any of that detailed engineering is putting the public at greater risk.

Then I would also say that whether the OP's crew follows the engineering specs to the letter or assembles the house with duct tape is between the OP and the OP's crew as well, and perhaps the building inspector.

[Alaskan Son]

Richard,

I made the above statement that you quoted based on what I believe is required of general design work. As far as general design work is concerned, a house can be built from basic layouts and elevations. My point was not that I don't think we need engineering. My point was that at some point it stops being a designers responsibility and becomes an engineers responsibility. I was just concerned about charging my client fairly. I don't want to take a whole lot of extra time drawing up details when it should rightly fall under the responsibilities of an engineer.

You probably aren't fully understanding what I'm saying because it seems you are a licensed architect and don't have to regularly outsource all engineering. Its something you've worked hard for I'm sure, but as a builder there are lines we have to understand. You are probably more likely to draw up everything you possibly can because it falls under your responsibility. I'm not licensed to be responsible for engineering so I don't want to take it any further than I have to. Especially because an engineer has to go over the plans anyway.

[eblcody]

We love you anyways Richard... ya grumpy ol duffer!

[lbuttery]

Complete the drawing with details and calcs. Refer to engineer to verify and recommend options or additional notes. The engineer may not understand your intent without a complete plan.

Thane:

Hmmm...

any engineer worth his license would not want to use another's drawings

the engineers I worked with did site visits and made their own drawings
they used mine for "guidance of intent" only

Lew

[RMorrison]

You probably aren't fully understanding what I'm saying because it seems you are a licensed architect and don't have to regularly outsource all engineering. Its something you've worked hard for I'm sure, but as a builder there are lines we have to understand. You are probably more likely to draw up everything you possibly can because it falls under your responsibility. I'm not licensed to be responsible for engineering so I don't want to take it any further than I have to. Especially because an engineer has to go over the plans anyway.

Michael,
Well, if you're stating that an engineer is going to be involved in any case, then that is different. You seemed to imply that engineers were only brought in when the local codes required it, and that you really didn't need or want specific engineering details, which struck me as being irresponsible for a builder in your region. If I've misunderstood, then I apologize.

I usually hire (or actually let the client hire directly) structural engineers when it gets too tedious. (Mostly second-story additions and hillsides.) In earthquake country around here, the calculations are often over 50 pages, sometimes WAY over 50 pages. In these cases, the structural engineer will do his own drawings. I just don't want the liability.

[Alaskan Son]

Richard,

Thank you. You were partly right, just not in understanding my question. Alaska is interesting. I do work in a [B]very[B] wildly ranging place in the country as far as engineering and climate is concerned. For the most part when I work in Anchorage, engineering is a must and is the standard practice. 1 hour away where I live in Wasilla, residential engineering is almost unheard of. Since I moved here in 2004 I have never worked off of, or even seen an engineered set of residential plans. The good part is, its in a lower seismic zone, and most homes are simple enough to frame using prescriptive methods.

[sutcac]

I find it interesting that there seems to be such concern about a client having to pay for professional structural engineering when that engineering, even here in earthquake-prone California, is such a small percentage of construction costs. In most cases, in my experience, this engineering (limited to residential work) runs something like 0.5% to, only in the most extreme circumstances maybe 2% of the total cost of construction. And that includes ALL of the structural drawings, details, and specifications done by the engineer. I just provide CAD backgrounds for floor plans, sections, and elevations.

If a client balks at this, the job isn't likely worth your time or liability whether you're a designer, builder, engineer, or architect.

I guess I'm a little baffled as to why there is such a seeming conundrum about where the designer leaves off and the engineer begins. The dividing line is pretty clear, at least as far as the lawyers are concerned. And as Richard has often pointed out, the leading source of liability claims against architects are not structural issues, but water damage.

[Alaskan Son]

Bryce,

Thank you for your response. You answered my question perfectly. It sound like you supply the layouts and elevations and you have an engineer do the rest. It seems there is no "industry standard". This is my first project where my contract included design work. In the future I'll just stipulate that I stop after all layouts and elevations are complete and the engineer can have it from there (unless of course he/she needs more info).

[MTH]

[QUOTE=sutcac;392297]
I guess I'm a little baffled as to why there is such a seeming conundrum about where the designer leaves off and the engineer begins. The dividing line is pretty clear, at least as far as the lawyers are concerned


Well, the most interesting thing for me is that I had to look up "conundrum" in the dictionary. Engineering isn't a problem but, I do appreciate the new word..