Dimensions Not Adding Up

[john rhodes]

I really feel sorry for those posting on this thread who feel they MUST produce drawings to the most minute fractions. As a long time builder who "hasn't lost a patient yet", you are wasting your time with all the 1/128" or whatever inches. Perhaps this is an ego thing for you, but there isn't a real-life builder or framer on Earth that will take that seriously. Do you really expect a framer to break out a microscope??????

Lets face it. Chief has ALWAYS been short on the most important of CAD features, dimensions being on the top of the list. It seems that ART wants more new users and they dont give **** about the users they have. It they did, this software wouldn't be so bloated with "pop the homeowners eyeballs" toys while lacking the dependability and accuracy of a real CAD program. I really liked Chief when I first got it and still use it to certain extents today. But I have purchased a program that, while it will take more time to learn, seems to focus on what is needed in a CAD program, not; "Hey look at this!! We know it doesn't really work, but there you go!!!"

ART:
Forget the new toys to attract new users!!!!! You are losing them fasting than you can gain them. Make the **** program work without causing everyone to doubt each and every mark on the plot sheet. (IE- Dimensions not adding up or referencing the overall center of a cavity wall??? What the *** use is that??)

I've never seen anyone pull measurements from the center of an air space.

Sorry for the bashing everyone, but Chief has cost me a great deal of time this week, especially with the crashing and associated rework.

[Deastman]

I think there are two issues here not just rounding. I have had plans with 1\16 errors where no measures were other than 1\2 inch placements. These can some times be corrected by just playing around with the offending item until the dimension shows correctly. On 45 degree angles you should get what you get as that would be correct and my form setters and carpenters have 1\ 16" marks on their tape measures and they can read them. I have never seen a 3'-0 1\16" window but if this problem arrises a seperate dimension string for these items that does not continue across would solve the rounding issue.

I feel that it is my responsibility to correct my dimension strings before I release my plans and I think Chief calculates just fine except for the first issue which I can't explain. I would not want to be able to edit the measures as that would really create a creditability issue and be a source for user error.

I'm sure many users will dissagree with me but I have been building over 30 years and and have changed my mind a few times as to where responsibility lies and what is usable information on a set of plans.

Just my opinion.

[Grant]

I am not defending the 1/128 dimension measurement but merely saying that accuracy is paramount.

Again, ART needs to get this fixed now. And if ART doesn't think its important to its current user base or to new users, place a placard on the website that tells new potential users that yes we have great software but our dimensions don't add up. Can't get that level of accuracy right yet.

Not only will ART lose considerable sale, you would be able to hear the sucking noise of all the potential new users running for the next CAD/design program.

IMHO, I can live with workarounds to a point, and I realize there are issues with all software, but the basics are the basics, and this issue is pretty basic. Either it works or it doesn't. And since it doesn't it should IMHO be fixed before anything else, except perhaps crashes.

After reading this post, I myself am now more seriously considering othercad programs. I think of myself as a pretty loyal Chief user, and for the most part I really like the program, but, my confidence in ART is in question.

Grant

[nightowl_vg]

I am appaled at this discussion. Builders don't deal in 1/16 or smaller fractions. It simply doesn't happen. If it does, it's the exception, not the rule. But a lot of you are saying "While Chief works ok, it doesn't handle my exceptional situation, and therefore ART is unrespsonsive to users needs"

I believe ART is as responsive to your needs as any company would be. You are a very small percentage of the money they make. However, your needs would require a very significant amount of development time, which costs money. You are not going to get the changes you require until such time as the majority of Chief users need those changes. It is simple business.

Having a background in building/designing and software development and testing, I have a pretty good idea of what I am talking about.

If you need 1/128 precision, use othercad. If you want "draw a wall and immediately pull an elevation of it" use Chief. If you want the best of both worlds, use Chief and export to othercad for dimensioning. As someone already stated previously; Framers don't need that kind of precision, and generally ignore it when it is present. The house still builds fine. If you are concerned with the appearance on the plans, either don't use fractional inches at all, or manually add dimension lines and text.

And stop saying "I consider myself to be a loyal Chief user" and following that statement up with "I am now considering switching to othercad"!!!!
Loyalty is exactly that. Stay or don't. I don't care, and I don't believe ART will over an issue an minute as this.

I have been using Chief for only a few months. I have decreased my "production" time from about 2.5 weeks to about 5 days on most of my jobs. My father, who has used pencil and vellum for 35 years now points and clicks because of the qulaity plans we can produce with Chief. Yes, there are problems. But, it's software. There are ALWAYS problems with software. Live with them, or don't. That's it!

To sum up;
ART, GREAT JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vern H. Gill

[Grant]

Vern, you may be right. I made my statement about loyalty and the fact that you don't like it makes me stay up at night and wonder if I am a good person or not. Get a life.

ART has a serious problem here, again IMHO. This is basic functionality. If dimensions are not dependable, what else is not. It raises very serious questions about the software.

Your statement about ART not caring if I leave or not, and that this is such as minute problem shows your basic lack of business knowledge. I suspect ART does care as they started the post. I also bet that ART does want my business, and all Chief users business. Every customer, pain in the butt or not is a customer who puts food on the table. And every customer lost is an opportunity lost.

I wouldn't want to be one of your customers because obviously you could care less about the quality of your work and you seem to have an attitude about take it or leave it.

Wishing you success.

Grant

[nightowl_vg]

Actually I care very much about the quality of my work. And I don't have a take it or leave it attitude. I have an attitude of "If you are one of several thousand people who want this functionality, it is not financially sound advice to add it in for you, and delay other updates or addins that a larger user base wants"

If the majority of Chief users want this functionality, ART will put it in. If a couple want it, and the rest want other changes/additions, it will wait. That is good business sense.

Microsoft did not get on top, nor have they stayed on top because 2% of the Windows users don't like Internet Explorer being integrated.

AutoDesk did not get to where it is at because 12% of the users wanted the Architectural 3-D capabilities that other software, such as Chief provides.

ART did not get to where it was at by providing the thing that 1% of the users want, and ignoring the wants/needs of the other 99% of users.

Yes, your purchase puts food on the table. But, if you leave because the dimensions don't run out to 1/128, there will still be thousands of users who are happy with 1/8, or 1/16, who will STILL put food on the table.
Conversely, if thousands of users leave because the basic CAD tools aren't improved but the dimensions are, then your purchase will not sustain the company.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

And, as far as you not sleeping at night, try Tylenol PM. You are still not showing your loyalty by stating any loyalty, then mentioning leaving. If you are loyal, stay loyal. If you leave, you never were.

Always, the opinions voiced here are my own.
Vern H. Gill

[Doug Park]

My intention in starting this thread was to find the set of ways that you as users would like to see this particular problem with dimensions handled. I would very much appreciate it if we could discuss this in a professional manner without adding emotion to the equation.

Every opinion expressed here is valid and should be respected. Just because you don't happen to agree with how someone else likes to see their dimensions add up, doesn't mean that they are wrong.

I really value the constructive comments that have been made. Understanding how you prefer to work is an important aspect of understanding how to solve this problem.

So let's get back to talking about how we can improve this feature in a way that will satisfy as many people as possible.

[Olav]

Doug.
I think Grant sums it up pretty darn good. It really does not matter what fraction below 1/16" we are dealing with, The dimension string should add up, even if it is just to 1/16".
Please get this fixed even if there are only 2% (or whatever) of us that care about if the dimension strings are correct
Olav

[Grant]

Doug, Iappreciate your sentiments.

Personally I agree with most of the posts on the forum that 1/128th of an inch is not of much use. IMHO, I think anything above 1/16th is not of much value.

BUT, my concern is that the dimensions add up. Chief right now supports 1/16th of an inch.

I believe the real issue and why you are seeing so much verbalizing is that you mentioned that the dimensions under certain circumstances don't add up.

Respectfully, having dimensions that don't add up is unacceptable. On a large house, I am now forced to add up manually the long dimension strings. This takes a long time. I can't and won't submit plans for review where there could be the slightest chance of these being off. And this is something I shouldn't have to do. As I said before, dimensions either work or they don't. No workaround for this is acceptable. ART is now asking us until this gets fixed to start calculating our dimensions to ensure they are correct, or just leave them and hope they are correct.

IMHO, this is top priority. Now whenever a simple change is made, I am forced to double check the dimension calcs. Should not even be an issue.

Looking forward to the patch.

Grant

[Doug Park]

Let me restate the problem with a slightly different example.

Please, take a look at how this works in Chief before posting a reply.

Set the dimension preference to 1" accuracy.
Draw 4 walls.
Dimension one side to exactly 30'
Drop a window in the 30' side.
Make the window 3' 0-9/16" wide.
Auto Dimension.

Now the dimension run will be off by 1 inch.

In this case we have asked Chief to round the dimensions to the nearest inch. And it has done a faithful job of doing that. The problem is the model in this case is accurate to 1/16". Chief now has two conflicting pieces of information to reconcile.

What do you want Chief to do in this case?

Please be aware that we aren't looking for 1 right answer here. We are looking for the different ways that you as a user would like to see the dimensions represented.

BTW: You can set your dimension preference to use decimal feet/inches and get more accuracy. At that point you can adjust your model be accurate to the precision that you would like and then set your preference back after things are cleaned up.

[Dean]

As a framer I would prefer to have the center of the window opening to remember. As I go along the plate marking studs, I then place a centerline mark for each opening. From there I read the opening schedule and center each rough opening from those references.

With a 1" dimension snap (rounding), you can then place the centers of each opening on an even 1" mark.

Chief already provides for this method of framing layout.

By using the opening center you have one less dimension to add up in the end. If you need more precision you can always dimension a framing view of the wall by using the point to point dimensions set to 1/16 accuracy.

What sould Chief do if it gets a dimension that is not on the 1" mark? I say it should then show in red with an indication that rounding has occurred with the intention that it needs user input to correct if it does not fit the dimension snap(rounding) scheme.

Upon selection the "red" dimension you would have an option to fix the dimension by leaving it exact or by moving an affected object to that 1" mark. Once a dimension has been addressed this way you could call it 'locked' so another dimension could be addressed without re-doing the ones you have fixed.

This is purely an idea and may not be ideal for the masses. I know that using window centers in my dimension strings will most often avoid the rounding issues entirely.

[mbmcphate]

Hey Doug!
I do think that Dean has come up with a very good answer to the problem of rounding, be it 1/128",1"or 1'.
His solution this would give us the ablity to change the error as we see fit.

mbm

[Ben Palmer]

In addition to Max's post and three strings, I would like to see a fourth string for wings (to add up to overall).

Ben

[Eric Muetterties]

PLease give us the ability to edit dim text.

I would love to have a tool that easily can setup "Eq." (equal) dims. I use these quite a bit and Chief makes this frequently used architectural annotation quite difficult. The ability to edit the text would be awesome.

[Rickt1962]

WOW Doug are you saying that in 8.06 they are going to add up !with the next patch