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[WendyWelton]

About 1 key vs 2 key vs combination keys:

As I've watched this thread, I've had a resistance to two key combos, because I've imagined being back to pressing "enter" all the time. But - as I think about it...

1 - that's not necessarily so.
2 - I find combinations much harder to do than two keys, even if "enter" is required. I have to stop, look, and worse - use two hands - for Ctrl-Alt whatever.

I can do my two keys and enter in acrap with my eyes closed and one hand behind my back (or better yet - one hand staying on the mouse)

[ktkcad]

I once took a speed production class, and they wanted us to use our left hands for the mouse, so the right hand could do numbers at the same time. it took a hand injury to get me to finally switch. But, if you're talking pure time and motion, the dude was absolutely correct.

Interesting Wendy,

I was teaching that to architects 20 years ago. Mouse is controlled by major motor movements of the wrist, arm and elbow. Keyboard is finer motor movements of the fingers and wrists. And 'lefties' should reverse it and put the mouse in their right hand.

"If only" I had copywrited that technique....

[Glenn Woodward]

About 1 key vs 2 key vs combination keys:

As I've watched this thread, I've had a resistance to two key combos, because I've imagined being back to pressing "enter" all the time. But - as I think about it...

1 - that's not necessarily so.

Wendy,

What I am proposing is the use of the 2 letter key commands as used by Generic Cad and Visual Cad.
You tap one key, then you tap the other key, the command is executed - no Enter required, no pressing 2 or 3 keys at once.
When autocrap pillaged Generic Cad, they implemented the 2 letter shortcuts straight from Generic, BUT they couldn't do it without the Enter after the 2 letters which is not nearly as elegant.

I just find it so funny when something like Ctrl+Shift+Q is called a shortcut! Well...please...first of all you have to remember what the shortcut is for, and then you have to somehow manipulate pressing 3 keys at the same time!!!!
Pick me up off the floor - I'm laughing so much!!

[louis]

Glenn,

Check this out, and with the two letter commands your talking about.

http://www.generalcadd.com/gcpcommands.htm

[gawdzira]

Yes to the selection issues. In 3d programs I used to work with they were hierarchal so you had different ways to group elements and view the hierarchy tree (but that sort of thing is just dealt with in layers in most CAD type programs).

One thing that I used get a lot of mileage from was a tool called "Quick Select Sets". If I selected 20 items I could make them a "quick select set". I had a list of sets to recall for future use.

[Glenn Woodward]

Glenn,

Check this out, and with the two letter commands your talking about.

http://www.generalcadd.com/gcpcommands.htm

Louis,

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I am talking about.
I did mention General Cad in a previous post.

The guys who wrote General Cad are the same guys who wrote the original Generic Cad and the original Visual Cad. The 2 letter shortcuts are almost identical in all 3 programs.
As I have already said those 2 letter shortcuts are logical and fast - it would be really worthwhile to download the program and seeing just how great the 2 letter commands are.

[WendyWelton]

Two letters - no enter...

I like it. No - I love it.

I assume it would mean the end of one letter only shortcuts? I think it's a worthy trade off.

Since this came up in this thread, I've been watching myself work. Painful as it is, I went back and did a bit in acrap, with the 2 letters + enter, to compare.

Two letters, even with the added "enter" is infinitely faster. Two letters wth no "enter" - it just gets better. As you guys have pointed out...

- keeping the mouse in place keeps concentration in place. For those of use who are "aim challenged", that can be an even bigger deal

- more intuitive. I always have trouble keeping combinations of alt, shift and ctrl straight in my mind, even with repeated use. Even with the huge, and sometimes obscure, acrap list of shortcuts, I almost never have trouble remembering, because they relate to the task. The only one I can always remember in Chief is Ctrl-Alt-V, because I use it so much. But, I'm imagining PH for Paste Hold - one hand - fast and easy... Oh I'm moved to purchase chocolate at the mere thought.

[louis]

Did I say I liked it?

[WendyWelton]

I take it that means you do?

[marty]

As a previous GenericCada nd DataCad user I long for their selection and command simplicity - and that was 15 years + back!
Chief has come an enormous distance since I started with V4 but as it gets closer to the ideal in most areas the remaining shortcomings - mainly with cad tools - become more obvious and more infuriating.

When I can produce a full set of concept drawings including floor plan, elevations and 3d views in under 4 hours but take 8 hours to produce one cross section it just doesnt feel quite right.
Selecting, moving, copying and deleting bunches of different cad objects is what it it is all about.

When I select a group of 30 or so objects (which would be easier if we had a "filter" tool) and freehand move it to a new location sometimes realise I have included something I didnt want to move. Undo doesnt work as that puts everything back. In GC and DC the "repeat last" command can also be reversed so in the above situation all that would be needed would be to select the object and invoke the "repeat last move distance" and reverse it.

It is the culmative of all the time saving tools which make the big difference. Each tool on its own will not speed the overall process but a combination of them - repeat last, match properties ,filters, etc would push Chief to the head of the class.

[WHirsch]

...It is the culmative of all the time saving tools which make the big difference. Each tool on its own will not speed the overall process but a combination of them - repeat last, match properties ,filters, etc would push Chief to the head of the class.

Well said, Gordon. It seems senseless to me, to be discussing incremental changes and delving in to minute differences about how keyboard shortcuts work in other programs, knowing that when we get whatever we get we will still be wanting more of basic functionality found in most other cad software. The sum of the parts matters most.

[sdsinc]

Love this thread. I will say that I waited so long for customizable hotkeys that I actually learned the old letters and now stick with them. I guess that is to Doug's point earlier on about learning commands that are not mnemonic.

Anyway, and I hope this belongs here, I would like to have a tie in between text and dimensions in a SINGLE interface/dialogue box with a drop style menu. For instance, when I am lettering a 1 1/2" to foot detail I have a drop selection with presets for the text size, arrow size, leader size, dim layer, text layer etc. When its 1/4" to foot it is a separate menu choice. Naturally the menu choices should be user programmable.

[Glenn Woodward]

Wendy, you soon run out of single letter shortcuts and you run out even quicker of single letter shortcuts that make sense!

Please excuse my indulgence while I rabbit on a bit more about 2 letter shortcuts (without Enter and pressed sequentially).

The real power of the shortcuts is actually not in the shortcuts themselves. Once you understand that they are all "nestable" and also once you realise that there can be shortcuts for EVERY command and EVERY system variable. This means that you can almost completely control your work with shortcuts bar picking points, selecting, etc, with the mouse - you almost NEVER need to access a menu or dbx with the mouse, it is all done with the shortcuts.

You want to change the Ortho Angle (Chiefs Angle Snaps) to 45 deg?
Type OA, 45, Enter. (the Enter is only needed because you are typing a number AND, you didn't even need the mouse!)
You want to change the text height to 500mm, the current text layer to Layer 100, and start drawing text?
TH, 500, Enter, TL, 100, Enter, TE.

Not 1 dbx used, and only 1 mouse click at the end to pick a text placement.
I guarantee that you can't do it faster or easier in any other cad program!!!!!! - In fact, I will bet my wife on it!

[Allen42acj]

Why does it have to be all of one?
Some things will be faster with the mouse..
And other don't get used that much to matter..
P and H are not that close together for my typing..

[Glenn Woodward]

Allen,

I am not saying that we need to do away with the dbx's, menus or icons.
The 2 letters are just shortcuts.
If you still want to drill through a menu, click an icon or open a dbx with the mouse, you can.
I am only talking about the best method for keyboard shortcuts.