Crooked dimensions, crooked walls...

[WendyWelton]

Do you find it harder to create walls, dimensions and other things that are at angles of 0 and 90 (horizontal and vertical)?

If so - how much is this bothering you?

And - if when Angle Snaps were on, they completely governed, would you like that?

In other words, with Angle Snaps on, newly created things, like walls, dimensions, cad lines, etc, could only follow the Allowed Angles, regardless of what Object Snaps were doing. To have them follow any other angle, you would need to either hold the Control key or turn Angle Snaps off.

In this idea, when using End to End dimensions, there would have to be some programming in the dimensions that even if the Ends selected were not in line with each other, that the dimension string would go to the nearest Allowed Angle - almost like it's running it's own little "Make Parallel" under the hood.

An aside: I believe one of the things that changed from Chief 10 to X1 is that dimensions are now allowed to go on angles. This was in response to people being frustrated dimensioning things like site plans, where many dimensions are on angles. Personally, I think solving one problem affecting one sheet has created problems for people on almost all sheets. And - dimensioning a site plan is still a two step process. It still doesn't go from the property line to the setback in one step!

If you have other thoughts - please feel free to post and elaborate. If you're very frustrated, yes that's relevant - just with some level of professionalism. And - let's try to keep it on topic - about straightness. If you have tangent thoughts - add a brief comment and link it to a new thread.

[Tim Schrock]

I have been using the '1' key to clear the "snaps" locations and the 'S' key to "skip" the snap locations. Then, the angle snaps are over-riding.

[lbuttery]

Wendy:

I have angle snaps on and object snaps off 99% of the time.

I would preferif wall snaps were a separate tool from object snaps
as I do like my walls to snap together and it's a PITA to have to turn on object snaps, align the walls and then turn off object snaps again.

I would prefer that angle snaps take precedence.

Lew

[tlsapp]

Wendy, This has been bugging me a lot - one of my few issues with X1. I thought it was just that there was some setting I was not aware of and was planning on researching it as soon as I had a chance.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the Lone Ranger on this.
What settings are you using to minimize this?

[ChiefChris]

I do not really like the way walls snap together, however other than that - I haven't experienced much trouble with snaps.

I have angle snaps on nearly all the time...and have all object snaps on all the time.

[Bob Sweet]

Wendy,
Thanks for posting this poll. In my opinion the snapping in X1 is a problem just waiting for a place to happen and it drives me nuts. Life would be wonderful if Angle Snaps had the priority. As it is I waste too much time just checking things to make sure things are not at weird angles.

I do not understand the logic for giving Object Snaps a higher priority than Angle Snaps. 99% of the things I draw are at normal angels so I want Angle Snaps to have the priority. It seems silly to have to keep Object Snaps turned off just so you can draw things a normal angles.

The few times I do need to draw a wall or dimension at 90.279489 degrees I would be more than happy to turn off my Angle Snaps.

Hope they change this quickly.

Regards,

[sutcac]

I remember a lot of the aggravation surrounding this before I upgraded to X1, and perhaps some of the issues were fixed prior to that, but I haven't found this to be a major problem. I would have to say I was much more annoyed at the way walls used to snap in V10 than by the way they do now. I tend to have Angle and Object Snaps on 90% of the time, but have my Evoluent Mouse programmed for those so can get in and out almost effortlessly on the fly.

That said, I have run into the issue with a previously drawn wall snapping to a very slight angle, presumably due to Object Snaps. But I haven't found this happens frequently and usually just fix it with "Parallel To..." and then just double check the dimension and move on.

I assume this still bugs the heck out of you Wendy and don't think I'd be opposed to Angle Snaps overiding Object snaps as far as walls go, but really don't want a return to the way they were in V10.

[WendyWelton]

Leslie,

Walls - Object Snaps is now a "hot toggle" - it can be changed in the middle of another command. If you assign it to a "hot key", you can turn Object Snaps off on the fly - start a wall with Object Snaps on, then turn off to finish the wall. That helps with walls.

Dimensions - I get best results by starting with any of the dimension options that gives me a straight dimension, even if the points it picks up are not aligned with each other. I use either a Manual Dimension or an Interior Dimension string, depending on what my end goal is, and edit them from there. If I only need a short dimension, I just drag far enough to give me a starter string - easier than dragging all the way through and removing a whole lot of nodes.

Bryce,

I'm still bothered, but shorting of full hand-wringing. I'm more bothered by walls than dimensions.

With walls, I'm not wild about having to choose between reliably straight, having to clean up little extra wall nubs, or zooming in. The real rub comes when you accidentally have a wall go crooked, but only ever so slightly. It's very easy to have the off-angle be so slight it's not immediately obvious.

I'm also a lot more concerned about this because I'm not the only one working on my plan files. I can conscientiously watch my own work habits, but error checking the work of others gets more challenging when this error is so easy to introduce.

I don't want a return to the way things were in Chief 10 either. We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I posted this poll because I keep seeing other threads and other posts where others are really very frustrated. Issues like this seem the most frustrating to recent upgraders and new users. Things that make it hard in the early days can't help sales for Chief any more than they help training efforts for those of us who employ staff.

I'm training my structural engineer right now and it's amazing how often I have to teach him the "secret handshake" - this setting, that toggle, another change in settings. It's incredible how much it's making getting him up to speed an up hill battle. I have to think the variety of these usability issues need to be collectively addressed for X2. Each is not necessarily a crisis, but together they are a real distraction. It's like being pecked to death by ducks.

[sutcac]

I do know there has been a lot of grumbling about it and am certainly not against improvements in it, just relating my personal experience. Just a one-man show, and like it that way.

One thing I do know has made a huge difference in noticing slightly off-kilter stuff is the 30" monitor. I know you are a road warrior and these slightly-off walls may not be a readily apparent on a laptop as they are on the big monitor.

Carry on!

[lbuttery]

Besides fixing this situation, maybe CA can add a plan check tool that when selectected highlights any walls that are not 0,45,90,etc.


Lew

[carpenterguy]

My experience with walls and snaps is very close to what Bryce has said on this, I don't have a lot of trouble with either but when I do it is mostly dimensions snapping to something I don't want it to.

To get around this I draw straight lines with the line tool then click those lines to open the dbx and set arrows to both ends and turn on line length.

Andy.

[Doug Park]

We could make angle snaps govern. In fact I experimented with this setting during X1 development. I ran across a number of situations where I found this to be very annoying.

If you make angle snaps the highest priority a cabinet, for example, won't automatically align itself with the one next to it when it is within snap distance.

Another is if I want to snap the end of a line to a particular location. With angle snaps as the highest priority you can't do this.

This resulted in a very high frequency of toggling angle snaps on and off as much of the time you do want them on.

I think there other solutions, such as per object snap settings where you can specify what to snap to.

Or perhaps a smart snapping option that is on be default that you can turn off when you want the snaps to work consistently between all objects.

[sutcac]

It seems that walls and dimensions are the biggest bug-aboos. Is it possible to have angle snaps govern only on these items and not other objects such as cabinets as you suggest? Is that what you mean by the smart snapping?

[WendyWelton]

We could make angle snaps govern. In fact I experimented with this setting during X1 development. I ran across a number of situations where I found this to be very annoying.

If you make angle snaps the highest priority a cabinet, for example, won't automatically align itself with the one next to it when it is within snap distance.

Another is if I want to snap the end of a line to a particular location. With angle snaps as the highest priority you can't do this.

This resulted in a very high frequency of toggling angle snaps on and off as much of the time you do want them on.

Doug,

We always have the ability to turn Angle Snaps off. We can now do it with a single keystroke.

I don't think we're talking about whether we'd need to turn one or the other Snaps off and on. I already have to do that, and it's still getting me frustrating results. I turn Object Snaps off, and have to deal with gaps and nubs in walls. We need both Angle and Object snaps for dimensions, and I know I'm doing a multiple step process of place and edit.

I think there other solutions, such as per object snap settings where you can specify what to snap to.

Or perhaps a smart snapping option that is on be default that you can turn off when you want the snaps to work consistently between all objects.

Personally - yes, I would be totally open to other solutions. My goal is not to have Angle Snaps being an absolute override. My goal is to

1 - Be able to quickly draw my walls, have the connections between them right the first time (no gaps, no nubs), and have them be straight the first time. If they're snapping, they should snap to other walls. Very very occasionally I want to snap to a cad guideline (centering a wall on a preset grid line for instance, or start off hugging a zoning setback line) or a roof baseline (rarely, but I do use this on dormers.) That's it.

2 - Be able to quickly place dimensions, the vast majority of which need to follow my Allowed Angles, and have them be right the first time - straight, and snapped to what I want. The only time I need Off Angle dimensions is on site plans, roof details, and the very rare millwork detail. If my dimensioning system is to the face of stud, I totally 100% want it to disregard the surface, the corner board, the roof gable line, various site plan stuff, furniture, the bounding box on blocks (very annoying - it will grab that when the furniture is off if Architectural Blocks is on, and you can't even see what it's grabbing!)

3 - Ditto with cad lines for details and such.

[Bob Sweet]

Doug,

Thanks for chiming in on this topic. I am in complete agreement with everything that Wendy said.

Although the program is probably working as it is designed I think the program should work in a way that will minimize user errors. When I worked in manufacturing quality assurance one of the principles we practiced was to “Failsafe” our processes. When a process was failsafed it would be very difficult for an operator to make a mistake and produce a defective product.

The way X1 works it’s too easy to draw walls, lines, and dimensions at weird angles. This results in wasted time checking and fixing errors. The fixes are easy if they are noticed. However, the thing that scares me is the ones that are not found and slip out the door.


Regards,