Research: Text and Callouts

[marty]

My biggest single issue is that a text block and its associated arrow should always remain linked. If the arrow is moved to start from a different end of line the link should remain in place.

I often want to copy a complete group of annotations from one cross section to another. If I select the text tool and group selct all the text the arrows are not selected. I regard this as a bug and niot a feature request.

A lot of the other issues mentioned would be covered by a "match properties" tool which with 2 clicks could change any text item to the correct layer size etc. Having this tool would cover a very large number of user grumbles.

[WendyWelton]

Automatic default text and dimension layers for each layerset is only part of the solution, That is not the answer to scaling problems, which is the greater part of the problem. Dimension and text styles that include all of the current settings plus a layer assignment is the answer. Implementation need be nothing more than a drop down list for selecting from the preset styles, although hotkey customization would be a good alternative. I'd shave 30% of my time off the annotation for a typical plan set if I could select pre-set text styles with pre-set custom properties for layer, text size, justification, color, arrow type, and arrow size. Ideally, the same thing would be available for dimensions. At the very minimum, there should be some way to quickly rescale dimensions. Why, in vers 10 and XI, can I select a dimension object, and open the transform dialogue, but not have access to the resize function? That would be a pretty crude way to manage dimension scaling, but it would be better than what is currently available.

(bolding mine)

I agree. A true and complete solution will address font and arrow/tick sizes as well.

I agree that we really are talking about a solid 30% of annotation time, if not more.

[JP Ware]

Inserting additional text and dimension layers is something that any user can do. Automatic default text and dimension layers for each layerset is only part of the solution, That is not the answer to scaling problems, which is the greater part of the problem. Dimension and text styles that include all of the current settings plus a layer assignment is the answer. Implementation need be nothing more than a drop down list for selecting from the preset styles, although hotkey customization would be a good alternative. I'd shave 30% of my time off the annotation for a typical plan set if I could select pre-set text styles with pre-set custom properties for layer, text size, justification, color, arrow type, and arrow size. Ideally, the same thing would be available for dimensions. At the very minimum, there should be some way to quickly rescale dimensions. Why, in vers 10 and XI, can I select a dimension object, and open the transform dialogue, but not have access to the resize function? That would be a pretty crude way to manage dimension scaling, but it would be better than what is currently available.

Take a look at how AutoCad handles text and dims, imo it is one of the programs few redeeming features, text styles and dimension styles.

[WendyWelton]

I sent this to Jeff, but then I said "duh" - let's put it here so others can throw in opinions and maybe throw some examples in here of how they like work or want text with arrows to format.

[WendyWelton]

And - I dragged out my old collection of acad blocks that we used for callouts. I most especially miss both the fill in the arrow, and the ability to make it either grey or black. We used black for sections, grey for elevations. A bit of subtle graphic coding helps drawings read.

[ibuild]

Nice details Wendy....They really add an air of professionalism to the "work", which seems to be one of the focal points of this thread. The existing annotation tools by themselves can give you a pretty good "high school drafting class" plan set but my experience is that to get a professional set out, you have to do a lot more work....building your own callout blocks, sometimes nesting them to achieve the desired look, adding color using overlay, etc.

Tip 1240032: Ever have arrows associated with text on the layout come unglued and end up scattered all over? Block the arrow with it's associated text item. End of issue.

[WHirsch]

The existing annotation tools by themselves can give you a pretty good "high school drafting class" plan set but my experience is that to get a professional set out, you have to do a lot more work....building your own callout blocks, sometimes nesting them to achieve the desired look, adding color using overlay, etc.

This is true, Al. This is not supposed to be high school software though. That method doesn't exactly facilitate speed, and speed is equal in importance to quality. It's pretty darned frustrating having to resort to making blocks for callouts when there is a whole set of "almost there" callout objects at hand. Now, if we had the ability to use variable attributes in blocks, this could be a viable solution, but it would be a pretty drastic departure from the way that things are done in Chief. Chief's callout objects are still a better idea. They just need improvement.

Tip 1240032: Ever have arrows associated with text on the layout come unglued and end up scattered all over? Block the arrow with it's associated text item. End of issue.

Been there, done that. End of issue until the the drawing gets revised and the blocks have to be exploded to move or alter the text and modify the leader. Yeah, its a workaround that helps, but doesn't eliminate the problem.

[ibuild]

I didn't say it was bullet proof. Just that it works. Any work around is just that....a work around.

Everyone reading this thread will see a lot of really good ideas from everyone who has taken the time to contribute. Make no mistake....the sum of the ideas constitutes a MAJOR investment in time and resources by Chief. If we want to create a situation where we have any expectation of getting something good within one development cycle, we (those who use this thing professionally) need to get together and define....SPECIFICALLY....what we want and what's most important. To maximize the chances of getting something done, we also have to make the case that what we want will benefit the entire product line....that it's in Chiefs best interest to make the investment. It's time to distill what's been suggested. If we don't, Jeff(remember Jeff? the developer who started this thread) won't know where to start...Any suggestions on how to quantify/prioritize some of this would be helpful.....

[WendyWelton]

Al,

Good point (about priorities & programming time). For me, my priority order would be this:

1 - Annotation Styles - in whatever form they come up with. Just please, 1 click, not 13. I like Larry's image - (post #37 in this thread). Of this list, this is the only one where my head may actually burst into flames if X2 comes out without seriously moving this football, and moving it smoothly and elegantly, within chief.

3 - Smart text that attaches to a polyline and gives it's sf. I really want a better way than the current scratch pad method for dealing with sf calculations. OK, this is only sorta, kinda, a "text and callouts" thing. I'm pretending I'm running for president and putting my pet sound bite into everything, whether it has anything to do with the actual question or not!

4 - Font Runs. My head won't burst into flames, but I'll be very disappointed, on the grounds that it just seems royally silly to be doing multiple text blocks side by side and on top of each other to get the desired effect. I literally have 3 pieces of text for every notes list - the title (bold and underlined), the numbers to the left and then the words themselves. If I edit the words, I have to check the numbers to see if I have to add spaces. It's Mickey and Minney. And no, using tab to make a table doesn't work, because tables don't word wrap! OK, how about this - if we can't have font runs, can we at least get word wrap into tables?

5 - Better callouts - Have them obey the default text layer, the option to put a fill in the arrow part, and designate the color of the fill. My head won't burst into flames, but I'll be very disappointed. It also seems like it should be more "low hanging fruit" than not.

6 - More on Callouts - The ability to add a line and/or line with arrow to any text within a shape. I use different shapes for different symbols for different things, and to have one piece instead of two would speed things up.

This would be my X2 list. Font runs is higher up my list than callouts, but only by a hair.

[HumbleChief]

I just added a couple of call-outs to a plan before discovering this thread and thought, "Hey it'd be cool to be able to customize the cross section line, or at least have a couple of choices in a drop down box of how they might look." I like the little flag at the end of the line like in Wendy's post above. I'd also like to add black or gray to the call-out as suggested.

It's kinda funny about this thread. I've given up a bit on having any kind of text tools in Chief and have muscled through most of my default text and tables and saved it in the library. Trying to think back on what frustrated me most and I think it is the way tabs behave.

When I use a word processor a tab gets your text lined up where spaces won't. In Chief's text using a tab gets you a table or something that I don't even recognize and CANNOT use. So I'm forced to use spaces to line up indents but they are never right and I never remember how many spaces I've used. So I go back a couple of times adding spaces to get the indents lined up and it's a PITA. So - suggestion - have tabs behave like word processor tabs and not turn text into a table (or whatever that thing is that Chief does). This could ease the making of any list, numbered or not.

I can live without being able to bold a word or two in any text run but that feature would make Chief's text editor look like a real text editor.

Here's a feature that no one's mentioned and it might a bit out there but I would LOVE to be able to enter and edit text directly on screen and on layer. Just click a spot and start typing text right into a plan with no dbx needed to enter all your text into. You could have your default text attributes and styles set up and any changes would require a right click and get you to a dbx to change the attribute. Or even select a single word on screen and select a bold button - done.

And of course, I think it was mentioned as the Holy Grail - have each callout number associate itself with the layout page it actually ends up on. Can't remember how many changes I've gotten back for the city saying the there is no A-2 on A-2 because I had to relocate it with a plan change but forgot to renumber everything. I guess if I could have one thing it would be that.

[Allen42acj]

There is not a lot in the tutorials about Call outs and Markers..

[Ben Palmer]

Great suggestions. I haven't read through all of them, so these may be repeats:

-leader to automatically be the same layer as the text (child parent relationship) a drop down layer menu would help change layers quickly when we forget to change the defaults.
- formatting: bold, italics, underline, fonts, size, etc. within the same text box, and the formatting is seen in the text box the way it will appear WYSIWYG.
- tables, tabbing that also reflect spatially WYSIWYG in the text box before it is in the plan. This is especially helpful for specifications with lots of text. perhaps adding automatic formatting for bullet and numbering indentations

...basically looking for word similar behaviour....where possible.

Tables that have customizable lines for headings, body, footer, totals, and minor spreadsheet functionality...at least some simple math formulas. This would help tremendously with certain calculations such as electric loads, fixture calcs, gas schematics, etc, and ensure accuracy.

I like the callout options that have been mentioned.

[ktkcad]

Many of the text options should be applicable to more than note text. Dimension line text and line labels should be editable, at least with additional text and basic alignment options.

[Doug Park]

Arrows will change to stay on the text layer now if they are on the same layer as the text.

If you are in leader line mode and group select you get both text and arrows.

[marty]

Hi Doug

I will confess to not adapting to those new text tools like leader and text with arrows - old habits die hard - but I have just done a quick check and could not get the arrow to group select with text with any of the text modes selected.