Research: Text and Callouts

[pintodesign]

Barb,
Have you tried this lately? The leader layer changes automatically with the text layer. This was a "bug" that's been fixed.
__________________
Richard

Hi Richard - Yes, I just tried it, and the arrow defaults to whatever the text DEFAULT layer is set to.
For instance, normally my text default layer is 116 (user defined). When I switch to my "floor framing" layerset, I the text is on 124. When I attach a text leader, it still shows up on 116.
Thanks...
Barb

[RMorrison]

Hi Richard - Yes, I just tried it, and the arrow defaults to whatever the text DEFAULT layer is set to.
For instance, normally my text default layer is 116 (user defined). When I switch to my "floor framing" layerset, I the text is on 124. When I attach a text leader, it still shows up on 116.
Thanks...
Barb

Barb,
So when you change to the floor framing layerset, you aren't then changing the default text layer? It seems like this would be the first thing to do so text ends up on the right layer.

[pintodesign]

I have CAD blocks in my library that are "floor framing notes" that are already on the correct layer, so I'm not rewriting things all the time. I agree, it might make sense to change the default every time, but I tend to switch back and forth (which is MY problem for not staying focused!), and I don't end up changing the default.
Barb

[JeffM]

Thank you all for the input regarding text and callout tools.

I'm not sure I understand all the suggestions presented. Can the suggestions listed below be clarified or details added?

1. Callouts drawn on 1st floor can be available on all other floors including foundation. Thanks.
2. For leader with note at left, option to have it left justify and the leader come to the end of the last line.
3. Options for graphic appearance on callouts - solid fill for one.
4. I am also forever turning on text layers that I don't want on when adding text to different layer sets. I set up different text layers on each layer set that I work on. Each time I change layer sets I also must change my text layer. It would be nice to text default to each layer set automatically. This also would be good for default cad layer assigned to a layer set, also dimensions.

Working to get everyones input represented.

[WendyWelton]

Jeff,

1 - I'm 99% this is the same as my #9. When we put a callout in indicating a cross section through a certain place in the plan, it's convention to show it on each level. I also use numbered and lettered column grids, which again should show identically on all floors. As you develop a set, with the inevitable changes, you have to constantly go from floor to floor making sure you carried the change through all levels. I usually update one floor, then go to the other floors, delete the column lines and callouts, and use copy and Paste/Hold to make sure I've replicated. This isn't too bad with section lines, but when you do it with column grids that already have dimensions on them - you're picking between re-doing/re-checking dimensions and carefully making adjustments in the grid lines. It's really quite the time sink. If you look at the plan I sent in on support ticket 4193, you'll see an example of the numbered and lettered grid. And no, I didn't make this system up. It's been used by architects for eons - makes answering phone questions a whole lot easier.

So - I think the desire is to have some layers that would show on all floor levels - like Reference, but not just one level up or down - all of them.

2 - I'll do a little mini example of right and wrong and send it to you.

3 - Just like the callout we have, except the arrow part filled in grey or black. The circle part stays as is. It makes them pop better on the plan.

4 - I didn't write this one, but I know exactly what he or she is talking about. If you're working on a structural sheet, and you forget that your default text layer is the one you use for electrical, not only do you have to move the note to your structural text layer, but you also have to remember to turn the electrical note layer back off.

This one is the whole defaults issue for text, dimensions and cad - what I'm calling "Annotation Defaults". It's like being pecked to death by ducks. No one peck (or click) will kill you. It's the repetition that takes you down.

I think I once counted a minimum of 13 clicks to change all three of these when I change from working on a structural sheet to an electrical sheet. And that's the minimum! If I'm switching from a sheet that's at 1/4" to one that's at 1/2", add several more to change font and arrow sizes.

Try it yourself. Make two sets text, dimension and cad layers. Now change all the defaults from one to the other.

This writer appears to be asking to have these default layers assigned to layersets. I think Dan had a better idea of doing the reverse - collecting them into sets and including a layerset assignment in the set, instead of the other way around.

[WendyWelton]

and lest there be any doubt just how much this duck can peck away:

Once there's a complete first draft of a set of drawings, from there on in, it's all editing. Editing means doing 3 things, 10 things, maybe 15 things on one sheet, then doing 3, 10 or 15 things on the next. Let's assume we have 3 of each type (basement, first floor, 2nd floor). In a full set of drawings I have:

1. Site Plan
2. Roof Plan
3. Architectural Floor Plans
4. Electrical Plans
5. Sometimes a separate lighting plan
6. Foundation Plan
7. Floor Framing Plans
8. Roof Framing Plan

Every one of these has to have the notes, dimensions and some cad work on separate layers, because to correctly use 3D modelling, like Chief, you use the same plan. When I'm editing, I might cycle through the whole set several times. When it's down to cleanup, I can literally spend more time changing defaults than I spend actually doing the work!

OK, I'll go back to that very editing now. Slinking away....

[Larry Kumpost]

Something to change all annotation defaults by task. See image from Beta forum. Adding a default layer for Callouts and tool bar configuration for each task. Too lazy to modify the image.

Also replace cameras with callouts so the do not need to be duplicated.

[WHirsch]

It would be wonderful If some really cool and revolutionary gui innovation came out of this discussion, but I think the answer to most of our prayers would be simple to implement, and it should be simple to use.

1- Wendy's idea for a new tool that globally inserts section flags and a column grid would be unique, super, and most certainly welcomed. I've long since figured out how to work around that issue by putting my section flags and grid on a separate layer and blocking them. It takes me just a few seconds to transpose the block onto the next floor. This is not my first priority, but I'd be glad to have it available.

2- It would be nice to have the leader line attach to the left side of left justified text, and to the right side of right justified text, or the option to make it behave another way. Vertical alignment of the leader line to the first or last line of text is something that, for me, is a function of the note placement and available space in the proximity of the object that I am noting. I don't mind making the minor vertical adjustment, but the default alignment of the leader line to the vertical center of a multi-line text object is contrary to convention. Default to first or last line would at least be correct half the time.

3- An option to fill section flags is long overdue. I work around this deficiency with blocks too, but the workaround is not elegant or particularly fast. It's just something that's necessary, and there's no other way to accomplish it.

4- Individual users will have different ways of working, and this is going to be difficult to implement without breaking something that some of us like or are accustomed to. This issue stems directly from having essentially only one text style and one dimension style available: the default. To me, default implies that other options are available, but all that you can do in Chief, without first creating the dimension, is change the defaults. If you do a full set with details in multiple scales, this becomes a huge time sink. When dimension defaults change, they change globally and retroactively. The best I can say for this is that it *****. The time that I waste repetitively changing dimension properties for individual (or small groups) of detail dimensions that scale at double, triple, or 6X the plan scale translates to real lost productivity. In the long run, its still more trouble to detail in another cad program and import the drawings, but not a great deal more trouble.

Inserting additional text and dimension layers is something that any user can do. Automatic default text and dimension layers for each layerset is only part of the solution, That is not the answer to scaling problems, which is the greater part of the problem. Dimension and text styles that include all of the current settings plus a layer assignment is the answer. Implementation need be nothing more than a drop down list for selecting from the preset styles, although hotkey customization would be a good alternative. I'd shave 30% of my time off the annotation for a typical plan set if I could select pre-set text styles with pre-set custom properties for layer, text size, justification, color, arrow type, and arrow size. Ideally, the same thing would be available for dimensions. At the very minimum, there should be some way to quickly rescale dimensions. Why, in vers 10 and XI, can I select a dimension object, and open the transform dialogue, but not have access to the resize function? That would be a pretty crude way to manage dimension scaling, but it would be better than what is currently available.

[sdsinc]

Wow - a lot of traffic here.

I agree with most things stated here - particularly simplifying the multi-tab option comments.

I don't always want the text to be on the layer that I am in. I think the way it is set up is pretty universal and comfortable. Sometimes I am drawing insulation and I will label as I go - I can't imagine why I would want the text on that layer so please leave the option open to user, not a global.

The leader tool is excellent and requires no change but one - when I hit the ESC key while in the command, I would like it to cancel the command. Not leave the first segment there so I have to jump out of the leader command and remove the stray leg.

Finally, I would like to have an actual table command that gives me normal, intuitive tabbed areas to work with like any normal WP program. A true WYSIWYG type setup. If you want to see how not to do it, check out how autocad does tables.

Thanks

[WendyWelton]

Automatic default text and dimension layers for each layerset is only part of the solution, That is not the answer to scaling problems, which is the greater part of the problem. Dimension and text styles that include all of the current settings plus a layer assignment is the answer. Implementation need be nothing more than a drop down list for selecting from the preset styles, although hotkey customization would be a good alternative. I'd shave 30% of my time off the annotation for a typical plan set if I could select pre-set text styles with pre-set custom properties for layer, text size, justification, color, arrow type, and arrow size. Ideally, the same thing would be available for dimensions. At the very minimum, there should be some way to quickly rescale dimensions. Why, in vers 10 and XI, can I select a dimension object, and open the transform dialogue, but not have access to the resize function? That would be a pretty crude way to manage dimension scaling, but it would be better than what is currently available.

(bolding mine)

I agree. A true and complete solution will address font and arrow/tick sizes as well.

I agree that we really are talking about a solid 30% of annotation time, if not more.

[WendyWelton]

I sent this to Jeff, but then I said "duh" - let's put it here so others can throw in opinions and maybe throw some examples in here of how they like work or want text with arrows to format.

[WendyWelton]

And - I dragged out my old collection of acad blocks that we used for callouts. I most especially miss both the fill in the arrow, and the ability to make it either grey or black. We used black for sections, grey for elevations. A bit of subtle graphic coding helps drawings read.

[ibuild]

Nice details Wendy....They really add an air of professionalism to the "work", which seems to be one of the focal points of this thread. The existing annotation tools by themselves can give you a pretty good "high school drafting class" plan set but my experience is that to get a professional set out, you have to do a lot more work....building your own callout blocks, sometimes nesting them to achieve the desired look, adding color using overlay, etc.

Tip 1240032: Ever have arrows associated with text on the layout come unglued and end up scattered all over? Block the arrow with it's associated text item. End of issue.

[WHirsch]

The existing annotation tools by themselves can give you a pretty good "high school drafting class" plan set but my experience is that to get a professional set out, you have to do a lot more work....building your own callout blocks, sometimes nesting them to achieve the desired look, adding color using overlay, etc.

This is true, Al. This is not supposed to be high school software though. That method doesn't exactly facilitate speed, and speed is equal in importance to quality. It's pretty darned frustrating having to resort to making blocks for callouts when there is a whole set of "almost there" callout objects at hand. Now, if we had the ability to use variable attributes in blocks, this could be a viable solution, but it would be a pretty drastic departure from the way that things are done in Chief. Chief's callout objects are still a better idea. They just need improvement.

Tip 1240032: Ever have arrows associated with text on the layout come unglued and end up scattered all over? Block the arrow with it's associated text item. End of issue.

Been there, done that. End of issue until the the drawing gets revised and the blocks have to be exploded to move or alter the text and modify the leader. Yeah, its a workaround that helps, but doesn't eliminate the problem.

[ibuild]

I didn't say it was bullet proof. Just that it works. Any work around is just that....a work around.

Everyone reading this thread will see a lot of really good ideas from everyone who has taken the time to contribute. Make no mistake....the sum of the ideas constitutes a MAJOR investment in time and resources by Chief. If we want to create a situation where we have any expectation of getting something good within one development cycle, we (those who use this thing professionally) need to get together and define....SPECIFICALLY....what we want and what's most important. To maximize the chances of getting something done, we also have to make the case that what we want will benefit the entire product line....that it's in Chiefs best interest to make the investment. It's time to distill what's been suggested. If we don't, Jeff(remember Jeff? the developer who started this thread) won't know where to start...Any suggestions on how to quantify/prioritize some of this would be helpful.....