Research: Text and Callouts

[perryh]

For me I think font runs means, the ability to save typical small phrases or whatever and insert them when needed. I'm always typing the same thing over and over again. a lot of $50 cad programs have this feature.

Thanks

[Doug Park]

Sorry about the "technical speak". Font runs are what we say when we are talking about inline formatting of text with bold, italic, etc. along with size. We will try to keep that clear in future posts.

[WendyWelton]

Dan,

Then yes, definately - for me, speed in changing defaults first.

[ibuild]

Perryh, Once you've typed something you shouldn't have to retype it. You can copy and paste from a saved doc file, save it on a layout page OUTSIDE the printable borders and pull it in when you need it, add it to the library in chief, even have standard layout pages and swap out the drawing by updating a viewport border or two.....

Wendy....Re QDJ....the difference between a dog and cat --> a dog says "you feed me and take care of me....you must be a god!".....a cat says "you feed me and take care of me....I must be a god!".....

[WendyWelton]

Al,

"Dogs have masters, cat's have staff". Actually, my cat thinks she's a dog, and we're not telling her the difference. Correction, I just asked her and she thinks she's both a dog and a god.

Dan,

If it really is an either/or choice, I'm bummed. I think the need to reduce the time it takes to change all those $*%^&#% defaults is urgent. I also think that it's a little bit silly that every other program in the world (or so it seems) has indents and bold and underlining and we don't.

[pintodesign]

Barb,
Have you tried this lately? The leader layer changes automatically with the text layer. This was a "bug" that's been fixed.
__________________
Richard

Hi Richard - Yes, I just tried it, and the arrow defaults to whatever the text DEFAULT layer is set to.
For instance, normally my text default layer is 116 (user defined). When I switch to my "floor framing" layerset, I the text is on 124. When I attach a text leader, it still shows up on 116.
Thanks...
Barb

[RMorrison]

Hi Richard - Yes, I just tried it, and the arrow defaults to whatever the text DEFAULT layer is set to.
For instance, normally my text default layer is 116 (user defined). When I switch to my "floor framing" layerset, I the text is on 124. When I attach a text leader, it still shows up on 116.
Thanks...
Barb

Barb,
So when you change to the floor framing layerset, you aren't then changing the default text layer? It seems like this would be the first thing to do so text ends up on the right layer.

[pintodesign]

I have CAD blocks in my library that are "floor framing notes" that are already on the correct layer, so I'm not rewriting things all the time. I agree, it might make sense to change the default every time, but I tend to switch back and forth (which is MY problem for not staying focused!), and I don't end up changing the default.
Barb

[JeffM]

Thank you all for the input regarding text and callout tools.

I'm not sure I understand all the suggestions presented. Can the suggestions listed below be clarified or details added?

1. Callouts drawn on 1st floor can be available on all other floors including foundation. Thanks.
2. For leader with note at left, option to have it left justify and the leader come to the end of the last line.
3. Options for graphic appearance on callouts - solid fill for one.
4. I am also forever turning on text layers that I don't want on when adding text to different layer sets. I set up different text layers on each layer set that I work on. Each time I change layer sets I also must change my text layer. It would be nice to text default to each layer set automatically. This also would be good for default cad layer assigned to a layer set, also dimensions.

Working to get everyones input represented.

[WendyWelton]

Jeff,

1 - I'm 99% this is the same as my #9. When we put a callout in indicating a cross section through a certain place in the plan, it's convention to show it on each level. I also use numbered and lettered column grids, which again should show identically on all floors. As you develop a set, with the inevitable changes, you have to constantly go from floor to floor making sure you carried the change through all levels. I usually update one floor, then go to the other floors, delete the column lines and callouts, and use copy and Paste/Hold to make sure I've replicated. This isn't too bad with section lines, but when you do it with column grids that already have dimensions on them - you're picking between re-doing/re-checking dimensions and carefully making adjustments in the grid lines. It's really quite the time sink. If you look at the plan I sent in on support ticket 4193, you'll see an example of the numbered and lettered grid. And no, I didn't make this system up. It's been used by architects for eons - makes answering phone questions a whole lot easier.

So - I think the desire is to have some layers that would show on all floor levels - like Reference, but not just one level up or down - all of them.

2 - I'll do a little mini example of right and wrong and send it to you.

3 - Just like the callout we have, except the arrow part filled in grey or black. The circle part stays as is. It makes them pop better on the plan.

4 - I didn't write this one, but I know exactly what he or she is talking about. If you're working on a structural sheet, and you forget that your default text layer is the one you use for electrical, not only do you have to move the note to your structural text layer, but you also have to remember to turn the electrical note layer back off.

This one is the whole defaults issue for text, dimensions and cad - what I'm calling "Annotation Defaults". It's like being pecked to death by ducks. No one peck (or click) will kill you. It's the repetition that takes you down.

I think I once counted a minimum of 13 clicks to change all three of these when I change from working on a structural sheet to an electrical sheet. And that's the minimum! If I'm switching from a sheet that's at 1/4" to one that's at 1/2", add several more to change font and arrow sizes.

Try it yourself. Make two sets text, dimension and cad layers. Now change all the defaults from one to the other.

This writer appears to be asking to have these default layers assigned to layersets. I think Dan had a better idea of doing the reverse - collecting them into sets and including a layerset assignment in the set, instead of the other way around.

[WendyWelton]

and lest there be any doubt just how much this duck can peck away:

Once there's a complete first draft of a set of drawings, from there on in, it's all editing. Editing means doing 3 things, 10 things, maybe 15 things on one sheet, then doing 3, 10 or 15 things on the next. Let's assume we have 3 of each type (basement, first floor, 2nd floor). In a full set of drawings I have:

1. Site Plan
2. Roof Plan
3. Architectural Floor Plans
4. Electrical Plans
5. Sometimes a separate lighting plan
6. Foundation Plan
7. Floor Framing Plans
8. Roof Framing Plan

Every one of these has to have the notes, dimensions and some cad work on separate layers, because to correctly use 3D modelling, like Chief, you use the same plan. When I'm editing, I might cycle through the whole set several times. When it's down to cleanup, I can literally spend more time changing defaults than I spend actually doing the work!

OK, I'll go back to that very editing now. Slinking away....

[Larry Kumpost]

Something to change all annotation defaults by task. See image from Beta forum. Adding a default layer for Callouts and tool bar configuration for each task. Too lazy to modify the image.

Also replace cameras with callouts so the do not need to be duplicated.

[WHirsch]

It would be wonderful If some really cool and revolutionary gui innovation came out of this discussion, but I think the answer to most of our prayers would be simple to implement, and it should be simple to use.

1- Wendy's idea for a new tool that globally inserts section flags and a column grid would be unique, super, and most certainly welcomed. I've long since figured out how to work around that issue by putting my section flags and grid on a separate layer and blocking them. It takes me just a few seconds to transpose the block onto the next floor. This is not my first priority, but I'd be glad to have it available.

2- It would be nice to have the leader line attach to the left side of left justified text, and to the right side of right justified text, or the option to make it behave another way. Vertical alignment of the leader line to the first or last line of text is something that, for me, is a function of the note placement and available space in the proximity of the object that I am noting. I don't mind making the minor vertical adjustment, but the default alignment of the leader line to the vertical center of a multi-line text object is contrary to convention. Default to first or last line would at least be correct half the time.

3- An option to fill section flags is long overdue. I work around this deficiency with blocks too, but the workaround is not elegant or particularly fast. It's just something that's necessary, and there's no other way to accomplish it.

4- Individual users will have different ways of working, and this is going to be difficult to implement without breaking something that some of us like or are accustomed to. This issue stems directly from having essentially only one text style and one dimension style available: the default. To me, default implies that other options are available, but all that you can do in Chief, without first creating the dimension, is change the defaults. If you do a full set with details in multiple scales, this becomes a huge time sink. When dimension defaults change, they change globally and retroactively. The best I can say for this is that it *****. The time that I waste repetitively changing dimension properties for individual (or small groups) of detail dimensions that scale at double, triple, or 6X the plan scale translates to real lost productivity. In the long run, its still more trouble to detail in another cad program and import the drawings, but not a great deal more trouble.

Inserting additional text and dimension layers is something that any user can do. Automatic default text and dimension layers for each layerset is only part of the solution, That is not the answer to scaling problems, which is the greater part of the problem. Dimension and text styles that include all of the current settings plus a layer assignment is the answer. Implementation need be nothing more than a drop down list for selecting from the preset styles, although hotkey customization would be a good alternative. I'd shave 30% of my time off the annotation for a typical plan set if I could select pre-set text styles with pre-set custom properties for layer, text size, justification, color, arrow type, and arrow size. Ideally, the same thing would be available for dimensions. At the very minimum, there should be some way to quickly rescale dimensions. Why, in vers 10 and XI, can I select a dimension object, and open the transform dialogue, but not have access to the resize function? That would be a pretty crude way to manage dimension scaling, but it would be better than what is currently available.

[sdsinc]

Wow - a lot of traffic here.

I agree with most things stated here - particularly simplifying the multi-tab option comments.

I don't always want the text to be on the layer that I am in. I think the way it is set up is pretty universal and comfortable. Sometimes I am drawing insulation and I will label as I go - I can't imagine why I would want the text on that layer so please leave the option open to user, not a global.

The leader tool is excellent and requires no change but one - when I hit the ESC key while in the command, I would like it to cancel the command. Not leave the first segment there so I have to jump out of the leader command and remove the stray leg.

Finally, I would like to have an actual table command that gives me normal, intuitive tabbed areas to work with like any normal WP program. A true WYSIWYG type setup. If you want to see how not to do it, check out how autocad does tables.

Thanks

[Kelly K]

Wow - a lot of traffic here.

I agree with most things stated here - particularly simplifying the multi-tab option comments......

What he said.

"Finally, I would like to have an actual table command that gives me normal, intuitive tabbed areas to work with like any normal WP program. A true WYSIWYG type setup. If you want to see how not to do it, check out how autocad does tables."

I like this idea better than mine with the menus (still stuck in the 20th century with dos). I liked drop down menus because it was like having a check list to edit my plan work. Of course the tabs and tables would have to be user definable, with the ability to add tabs & tables.

Back in ver. 9 the people at chief suggested that we create a plan file and place objects that we commonly copy paste. That I did, then discovered the hot keys in ver 10 that I mapped to my third mouse. I became a copy paste wizard. With X1 the power of copy has been improved immensely, but at the sacrifice of my prior methodology.

I have migrated some of my text work to the library, but to me this is less than satisfactory because the library items retains focus until I esc. out of them. The use of multiple mice, or flat forgetting that I have a library item selected (I get mesmerized and don't pay attention to my cursor), for me lead to accidental button clicks that place unwanted library items. I've tried to use 'The place library' for text work, but the icons are too small to see text.

The column grid is an okay idea but not a high priority for me. I personally found them only useful on complex commercial projects. A house framer can be confused by all the extra lines on a page sometimes misinterpreting them for a dimension leader for example. Global section flags, and global or page definable details would be greatly appreciated.

Kelly