A waste of space

[DougM]

All the Mcmansions by me are a gross waste of valuble space. Not so much the overall foot print of the house, but the size of the rooms and few of them.
For example, I was just called in to make a 4 bedroom Mcmansions a 7 bedroom house. No problem. The entry (foyer) had 20 foot ceilings and is 24 ft wide by 18 feet deep. which we will be putting in a floor (bed 5), the master bed which is now 24x28 (for sleeping in, what a joke) which we will divide into 2 beds with closets (for 2 of 7 kids).........here is the kicker......the master bath is 24' x 14' which we will gut and join with a huge walkin closet (the size of my master bed) divide into 2 more bedrooms a master bath and a common bath. total=7 beds 2 baths on 2nd floor. Which is now 3 bedrooms, 1 dance floor walkin closit and a bath big enough for the mens room at the highschool with lounge. And they are all like that in this area. I guess people do beleive big is better. Or whoever is desiging these thing thinks so. No wonder families these days don't stay together, they can't find one another.

[mbbailey]

Patrick presented us with a great article, even though it was somewhat difficult to decipher. It brings up some interesting questions. What is the ideal ratio for ceiling height to room area for a room? What would be the proper ratio of an external deck to a family room area? How do you make them feel like one room in the summer and isolate them from one another in the winter? How do you bring light in from the roof without loosing too much energy? These are the type of design questions we are all going to have to face.

As an example, the house I designed for my retirement is a 1.5 story craftsman with 2600sf of floor space. My wife and I only use the first floor which is 1800sf (LR, DR, Kitchen, Breakfast Nook, Laundry/Pantry, Office, and MBR) with the largest room being 16’x 15’. The upper floor (800sf - 2 Bed Rooms & full Bath plus major attic storage) is shut off for guest use only. The design requirements were to have at least three sources of light for each room. Keep the rooms compartmented and reasonable sized so they can be isolated to conserve heat. Have as many fully vaulted rooms on first floor as possible. Use hydronic heating to keep the structure as well as the rooms warm. Window to wall ratio was held to 20% and focused on catching morning and afternoon sun (We live close to Eureka, Ca. with the average temperature at 60ºF and the maximum temperature at 80ºF). It is multi-generational with full handicap access as we plan to never sell the house. We hope our children will be able to inherit this house and live here for several generations. All noise generating equipment is located in the attached 2-car garage except the refrigerator and dish washer.

The only wasted space downstairs is the 8’ wide main hall and vaulted entrance. The stairs to the second floor take up 4’, but have a zero node room and half bath under them. The upstairs hall has a compute workstation for guests. All the downstairs rooms (except MBR) have full glass pocket doors to allow light transfer and save space. Vaulted ceilings in the Entry, Office and LR have skylights, while the Master Closet has a light tube. The LR & DR could be combined into one room and the Office serves as a spare bedroom. We made the house large enough so that a sizable family could live here, but we don’t have to maintain all that space. We still have way more space than we need, and we love the house. There are a few things we would do different if we had a second chance. First, the laundry room would be larger and the hydronic heating would be zoned for each room down stairs. The LR and DR would be one room with a fireplace in the center. We will leave those things for someone else to consider and enjoy what we have while we can.

[Tim O'Donnell]

definition of an environmentalist: some one that already has their macmansion in the woods...ie movie stars in particular

condemn the loggers and the energy industry, for destoying the environment...then place a HUGE order for the resources to build and maintain such blights upon the landscape..maybe multiple ones of them...those industries only supply what someone orders, they do not race out to "rape" the wilderness for fun..it is the builders of these "palaces" who are placing the orders for the products they supply...and thus are directly responsible for the consumption of them

enact consumption laws, 2gpm shower heads, then put 10 or more in the shower...energy rules, then build huge homes

concrete is not a renewable resource...it comes from the ground... clay, gysum, sand, rocks and huge amounts of oil to process the clay/gypsum into the cement powder that is used to make it...that is part of the reason it's price has jumped so high in the last couple of years


think about this...if ALL the corn and ALL the soybeans grown in this country were diverted from the food chain and converted for use as 'alternative' energy...the ethanol from the corn would only account for 10% of our current energy needs, and the biodeiesel from the soybeans would only account for 8% .....wind generation only works when the wind blows.....solar is very expensive because it takes a lot of energy to produce the panels and they currently are not very efficient

I believe as professionals in the home building 'food chain' it really is up to us to do our part and 'educate' our clients as to the consequences of their choices...once explained to them most really do understand the consequences of their choices....but until informed, most never had really even given them a thought...

[Allen Brown]

those industries only supply what someone orders, they do not race out to "rape" the wilderness for fun..it is the builders of these "palaces" who are placing the orders for the products they supply...and thus are directly responsible for the consumption of them

...

So Tim,

If the Product suppliers are off the hook, because they are just supplying what the customers order, why don't the builders and/or designers get the same pass?? I know you mentioned earlier in this thread that we have the option of saying no, but suppliers have the same option. How are we the bad guys in this game?

[George Godwin]

First, the laundry room would be larger and the hydronic heating would be zoned for each room down stairs. The LR and DR would be one room with a fireplace in the center. We will leave those things for someone else to consider and enjoy what we have while we can.

Michael, - Thank you for the information on your home. Regarding the items you would change, I have a few comments and questions. Regarding the Laundry Room, up here we frequently use the Laundry Room as a Mud Room and entry from the Garage. A key consideration that I have is to provide room for a bench seat to remove and put on shoes and overshoes as well as closet space. Natural light would be nice and a sun-tube may be the answer. Do you have any further comments on a sun tube in the Laundry Room?

Regarding, a fireplace between the Living Room and Dining Room, a 3-sided unit could be used as a divider. We use a lot of recent model electric fireplaces that can be used year round with the heat off in the summer and have very convincing and adjustable flames.

Could you elaborate on your hydronic heating as to the unit that you are using and how you are finding the on-going operating costs. Thanks.

[mbbailey]

Hi George,

You ask some good questions. Here is the best I can do on short notice for answers.

The Laundry Room is between the Kitchen & Garage. It has a deep sink, front loading washer & dryer on a 12” raised platform, broom closet, pantry and coat closet. It has a small window at one end, top half glass doors on each end and a light tube in the center, so there is plenty of light out there. There is a sliding glass pass-through window between the kitchen and laundry, which allows the Laundry light to flood into the Kitchen. The Laundry has four doors counting the one to the Garage and from the Kitchen. The Kitchen to Laundry door is also half glass. That is a lot of doors for a small space. The laundry was supposed to be 8’x 20’, but due to a mistake in the foundation plan it would up 6” too narrow. That makes a big difference in a closet. There is a 48”x 60” landing in the garage to exit onto and that is where we take off muddy boots and such and hang wet rain coats. The laundry floor is a one piece vinyl and easy to keep clean. We also put a deep sink in the garage for dirty jobs and it has paid off big time. The laundry room stays much cooler than the rest of the house, but that is not a problem because of the way it is used. We have found that the sun tube is not very effective in a room that already has two light sources, but my design goal was to have three light sources when we built. There is hardly a shadow in the room during a sunny day.

Our hydronic heating has been good in many respects. It heats up everything in the house and it is great to walk on warm floors. Our heating costs have been moderate compared to other houses. Now, let’s talk about the problems. Our system tubing is installed in a 2” layer of concrete poured over the sub-floor. This creates a heat retention mass and delay times between heating and cooling changes. It will change the temperature of the house by 1 deg. per hour and will overshoot in certain circumstances. Wind plays a big factor when hydronic heating is used. Cold winds will **** heat out of the house at a very high rate and the heating system will get behind the curve and takes time to catch up. Then if the wind dies off the heating system will overshoot the desired temperature by a couple of degrees. In high wind conditions the outer rooms get cold before the sensor in the central hall can tell the heating to kick in. My advise is to put a thermostat in each outer room (requires a manifold with a valve for each room tied to its thermostat) and set the comfort level for that room. It will save money in the long run and allow you to go to bed in a cool room. A variable speed hydronic pump would also save money and control flow rate better. The cement thermal mass is great for heat transfer and I would not change that at all. It would be perfect if the controls were tied to an external weather meter for temperature, wind speed and wind direction. That would enable the system to have controls to compensate for the additional heat loss. Another issue is the carbon strip igniters in the high efficiency Polaris boiler. They burn out at the rate of one per year and are tricky to replace due to their sensitivity. We are looking for an alternative that has a longer life. We have been told that a small drop of condensation will fall on them and that is what shorts them out. All we know is that once a year, usually on a cold January day, we have to go out and replace the igniter unit. You would be well advised to install an alarm for when the igniter burns out so you don’t let the house get too cold. They usually fail while your are asleep.

Hope this gives you some insight into what I was describing and answers your questions.

[icfhomedesigns]

Hello.

I have enjoyed reading this discussion. I personally love large houses! But I can see that some of reasons for building small have merit. I am not an architect or designer.
When I started looking into building a house (Having some one build it for me actually), I read some books and searched the net for information.

After doing the research, I decided to build an ICF house with steel framing on the interior. There are several reasons why. The two most important to me are strength( 150+ wind resistance) and energy efficency.

My question for you folks is: Do you ever suggest your clients consider ICF (Or other more energy efficient) construction instead of traditional stick houses?

Everything I've read suggests that a larger ICF house can use the same or LESS energy than a small stick house.

Tony

[allstar24]

how big are the houses and how many acres of land

[lbuttery]

Think green - educate green - present green

Then design/build what the client wants (even if it's not green)

It's their house - they get to choose

Lew

[allstar24]

Mr.Tony, I am defiantly with you on the large homes. If you have not noticed, I am not a person that likes small houses. they are just not that impressive to me. I believe that ICF is the way to go for new home building. Just like you said, a larger ICF house can use the same or less energy than a small stick house. I still love to go see large model homes in our area that are masterpieces and works of art. Since I am young and not a professional yet, it allows me to dream big.

[mbbailey]

You have a point Toni. Insulated Concrete Forms are very strong and well insulated. They are great for basements and foundations, but take away a significant degree of design freedom in the walls. I have see people trying to build them in this area and they take much more planning than stick framing.

I suggest that you take a look at Structural Insulated Panels (SIP) as an alternative. They can be assembled in one day, have great wall strength and the insulating quality is far superior to stick framing until you get up to 10" walls. Time is money in this business and if you can build the exterior of a house in 3 days with a crew of two people then you are going to make some good money. An ICF foundation is still a great idea in combination with SIP walls and roof. You can even use SIPs for the floor to improve R value and cut production time.

[George Godwin]

Michael, - Thank you for the additional information on your Laundry room and hydronic heating system. I also agree with your comments on ICF. So far, I too, am only convinced on ICF for the basement level. I am going to look into SIP walls for this area from a cost/benefit point of view on the upper walls.

Being in south/central Ontario, we have to deal with warm summers and sometimes cold winters although we have no snow at this time and it has been raining intermittently instead of snowing during the past couple of weeks. This year is expected to have a record warm winter for this area and the ski resorts have laid off thousands of people pending colder temperatures.

[browndrafting]

I would have to disagree on the design flexibility of ICFs. Our company designs solely for ICFs, and nothing more.

Perhaps it is because of the experience with it that has led us to more unorthodox design and engineering feets, but we do round walls, large overhands and inset walls on a constant basis.

I think that you might need to think about supporting beams, upbeams in walls and non-traditional support methods if you're not building straight up, but it is certainly doable.

There are even non-heated swimming pools made of ICFs these days

Matt

[mbbailey]

I would have to disagree on the design flexibility of ICFs. Our company designs solely for ICFs, and nothing more.

Matt

Matt,

My comments about ICFs were not meant to imply that complicated designs were not buildable. My concern was that they take more time and money to build than stick framing with the same design and the more complicated the wall design, the larger the difference in cost.

Along these same lines and to bring us back to the basic topic, I designed a house in Chico, California using ICFs and incorporated a concrete ceiling/roof with parapet railings around the top. The roof was going to be used for outdoor activities in the evening in place of a patio. Access was to be provided from the second story game room over the garage. The interior and exterior walls were quite able to support the roof and this design allowed more green space around the house. My understanding is that this technique is used in larger buildings in places like New York, but I have not seen it used much in residential design. It fits pretty well with mission style and the cost is not that much more than a pitched roof. When you add the cost of a traditional roof and patio you may break even. This idea would be a big plus if your property costs are real high.

[Bruce MacNeill]

Patrick,
Thanks for the link to the article on alternative methods for expressing a house’s perceived floor area.
.oikos.com/esb/52/smallefficient.html
And to some others I agree that homeowners have the right to make their own mistakes when it comes to choosing a house design but I also think the design industry has a responsibility to educate homeowners and evolve standards that will assist them in not making mistakes.

Tools such as CA could allow designers to include performance ratings with their designs. When I buy a fridge, AC unit or a car they comes with performance ratings that allow me to make a cost / benefit decision, why not with a house? There should be floor area credits for cathedral ceilings and spaces that borrow space from each other. Going further house designs should include energy and day lighting performance ratings. I would sell this service, even if only on a comparison basis if CA would develop the tools.

Regards to All, Bruce