A waste of space

[WendyWelton]

Yes, it's part of my job to educate my clients - including challenging them on size, educating them about better building practices (and why they should pay for them).

A favorite point of mine is that the best way to build green is to build smaller.

[gpickren]

I guess the proper house size is kind of like the proper speed limit. Those who drive slower than I do are idiots and those who pass me are maniacs. That said, my mom and dad lived in one house from the time they married until they died. I was born while the finish work was going on and learned to sleep well to the tune of a tablesaw. They paid cash for the lot and the materials out of the money they had saved. The house was about 900 sq. ft. Two bedrooms and one bath. Very typical for a post WWII house. They never changed it.

My dad saved his entire paycheck during WWII. Since they fed him and clothed him and he did not smoke or drink, there was nothing for him to buy so he sent his whole paycheck home. Likewise, my mom was a schoolteacher living in my grandfather's farm house in Alabama. She saved pretty much everything she earned as well. They built this house for about $10,000 in 1947. Everything they ever bought in their entire life was with cash. Borrowed not one dime in their entire lives.

Most of my work is either designing California McMansions or additions to make existing tract houses more like a McMansion. There is no doubt that much of these houses is very wasteful. Closets the size of bedrooms one could rightly consider wasteful, however, the cost of the closet itself pales beside its contents. Anyone priced Ferragamos lately? Know how many Ferragamos can be stored in 1 square foot of organized closet? Answer, about $10,400 worth. So when you are looking at those kind of numbers the house waste begins to look like a bargain. I will grant you also that no one needs a master suite that is over 1200 square feet.

That said, I did a conceptual design of a farmhouse that looks similar to my grandfather's house except his was one story and mine has an indoor bathroom. OK, 3 indoor bathrooms. However, I did this with idea that it would comfortably accommodate 5 couples, meaning that there was room for them to gather, room to prepare food and eat, sleep and use the bathroom without undue waits in line. I compartmentalized the baths for multiperson use, but you will note there is no master suite in this house, yet all bedrooms accommodate king or queen size beds. I am pretty happy with it, except the mudroom, multipurpose bathroom downstairs seems a little confused.

I was surprised to see that this house is less than 2500 feet, not a small house certainly, but hardly a McMansion either. Last year I did a Cape Cod McMansion that had room sizes very similar to this one, but still had the expected master suites etc. It was over 4,000'. I think this farmhouse will be relatively economical to build as well, at least by California standards. I do think this shows that great size and cost savings can result when we simply take out some of the model tract home freu freu. If I get the opportunity to build it, it will be located on some property we have in mountains near Yosemite.

[Jim Rogers]

There is a series of books about the "Not so big house" and maybe that's something that Jeff could look at for designing over there.
It's telling people to use quality not quantity to make it a home, not just a house.
I got two of these books for Christmas and I've just started reading one of them.
Seems to make some sense to me....

I did her the author speak at a conference in VA in November, and a lot of what she said sounded good.

One thing that really stuck out was to make your house your way. If this is what you want build it that way. Don't worry about resale value. If you like it then you won't be selling it, you'll keep it and live there for a long time. And you'll take care of it making it last a long time. Your kids will like it as they will see how much you like it and if you pass on they may live there and like it too. And they'll take care of it.

My father built the house my mother lives in, and it's the house I grew up in. I like it, and will like it after she is gone. And we both take care of it, so it will last until I'm gone....

Just some thoughts.....

[Allen42acj]

Jim
Tim had said just about the same thing for his house.

Take steps to keep the house in the family now..
My mother is in a nursing home at this time and think her house will have to be sold to pay for it..
We tried to talk them into doing some thing,but it was always"let's wait and see".To late now...

[Tim O'Donnell]

Sarah Susanka's books are very good reads on how to not overbuild....

my brother lives in the house we grew up in and it has worked fine for four generations of o'donnells...24x28 story and a half and there were nine of us..one bathroom...we did have an outhouse as well

[lbuttery]

Don't worry about resale value

good thought, unless there is a job change, or a divorce or...

Lew

[gpickren]

Take steps to keep the house in the family now..
My mother is in a nursing home at this time and think her house will have to be sold to pay for it..
We tried to talk them into doing some thing,but it was always"let's wait and see".To late now...

In addition to the rather obvious personal benefits, I would like to point out the financial benefits of caring for aged and/or ill parents as opposed to putting them in a nursing home. Most of the nursing home care is paid with after tax dollars. There may be some conditions associated with a medical condition that may be covered by Medicare, but most long term care is non-deductable and even if deductable, can only be deducted to the extent that they have income to deduct against.

My mother was taking care of my father when she came down with esophageal cancer. The doctor wanted to put both of them in a nursing home until he found out that I was going to stay with them as a caregiver. Meanwhile, my father in law had Alzheimers and has lived with us for five years.

Now, to the economics. Nursing home care for my two parents would have run between $6,000 and $7,000 per month. Cost for my father in law would be about $6,500. Therefore, you are looking at approx. $13,000 per mo. in after tax dollars. If one is self employed one would have 15% for SS and Medicare and if they were only in a 25% Federal and State tax bracket the gross income to net $13,000 per month after tax is almost $20,500 per month.

For a single patient care of $4,000 the same math equates to a gross income of $6,273. When you consider commuting costs, lunches, wardrobe, etc. the real equivalent is much higher.

I can truthfully say that the most fullfilling time I have ever spent was the final two years of my parent's life.

[Allen42acj]

My Dad would have been no problem to have taken care of..

[Bruce MacNeill]

Nice topic!

1.Shop at Ikea for furniture.

2.Show the client’s furniture in your plans and layout every room to demonstrate that the dimensions you are proposing work. Usually small to medium is better than vast.

3.Read and educate yourself. Books by Sarah Susanka are good.

4.Plan a house that can age with the occupants, no kids, with kids, with in law apartment. Look at The Grow Home, http://mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=624bookid=624

There are regulatory and cost pressures that are forcing developers to be on the lookout for space saving designs.

Bruce
P.S.
Big is not always better or more profitable.
I have been involved with a local project targeting empty nesters on a budget with a floor area of less than 1000 s.f. / unit. It turned out to be so popular and economical to build that the developer is selling them for about 40% over his target price!

[Bruce MacNeill]

sorry above link does not work, try searching google for 'the grow home' and look at McGill University Site

Bruce

[allstar24]

Some people have always dreamed about having a house with out bumping into each other in it. If they can afford to build an maintain it, they can build as big as they want to. In my area, house that is 3000 sf is not that big. I don't think that a 1500 sf house would be that impressive to look at either. Personally, I don't like to build any "boxes" or houses under 3000 sf. Now there is a builder that is currently building houses that are 4500 sf on quarter acre lots. That is ridiculous, they look like massive townhouses. I believe that people will eventually find a way to save energy cost. Another thing that matters is how you build the house. A house that is 1500 sf and not built right(air infiltration), can cost more then a house that is 3000 sf and built with all the innovations to save energy.

http://www.mtr.com/new_homes/floorplans/6-12/virg.html

If you have dreamed for about having homes this big, and earned it, Don't let anyone hold you back!!

[mbbailey]

The same principle can be applies elsewhere in a house, how about the hall, if the door is located away from the corner, this small space can now be used to hang coats or perhaps install shoe storage.
Would anyone like to share their views or ideas, as regards design and good use of space.

This thread has digressed to the point where the original question is not being considered. I doubt if he really cares about our political views or our sense of proportion. He is looking for space saving tips in design. You all know that some people can design a 1500sf house to have more usable space than some with 3000sf. What are the principals involved and how are they applied? I would frankly like to see some discussion in this area as we are approaching the point in this country where building materials are going to price many of us out of the housing market unless we begin to design multi-generational houses with realistic space & maintenance requirements.

[patrick]

I find this article helpful:

oikos.com/esb/52/smallefficient.html


Patrick

[allstar24]

Ok, nice article. Some people like to be able to spread out when they are in their house. Personally I would rather have a kitchen like the first picture rather than the second one. 2600, in my opinion would be the absolute minimum sf I would go for. Even if someone did have nice stuff in their "tiny" house, they can only fit but so many things, including people. I would not want a kitchen like the first link unless it is necessary. You could even fit a kitchen like the first picture in a 2700 sf house. Concrete and trees are all renewable resources too. If you build your house right, you can cut down a boat load of money in energy costs. Just like Mr.Bailey said, these homes have to be multi-generational as families expand and the housing demand gets larger. A job of the architect is to make dreams a reality
and not to dictate the house they are going to build.

[DougM]

All the Mcmansions by me are a gross waste of valuble space. Not so much the overall foot print of the house, but the size of the rooms and few of them.
For example, I was just called in to make a 4 bedroom Mcmansions a 7 bedroom house. No problem. The entry (foyer) had 20 foot ceilings and is 24 ft wide by 18 feet deep. which we will be putting in a floor (bed 5), the master bed which is now 24x28 (for sleeping in, what a joke) which we will divide into 2 beds with closets (for 2 of 7 kids).........here is the kicker......the master bath is 24' x 14' which we will gut and join with a huge walkin closet (the size of my master bed) divide into 2 more bedrooms a master bath and a common bath. total=7 beds 2 baths on 2nd floor. Which is now 3 bedrooms, 1 dance floor walkin closit and a bath big enough for the mens room at the highschool with lounge. And they are all like that in this area. I guess people do beleive big is better. Or whoever is desiging these thing thinks so. No wonder families these days don't stay together, they can't find one another.