Pay Scale

[WendyWelton]

www.chiefportal.com It was set up for us to be able to share files. I think Lew did it and ART may be helping support it.

W

[alobartn]

Thanks. Great idea. I joined.

[lbuttery]

Clarification on the portal.

Greg did the portal and I have been helping to load "stuff".

Anyone could (and should) be contributing "stuff" that others could benefit from, it is a great resource and will be even greater if everyone uses it.




Wendy:

The files have to be zipped to be uploaded.
Send it to me if you continue to have trouble.

Lew

[gergman7]

Originally posted by WendyWelton
www.chiefportal.com It was set up for us to be able to share files. I think Lew did it and ART may be helping support it.

W

Lewis is the largest contributor to chiefportal by far, however ART has nothing to do with the site itself. A request to be added to there "User Center" has not been replied to either (Just incase any ART people read this)



Back on topic I have found this to be a very informative thread and glad people are willing to share a bit of information. I mean for many of us we don't compete with each other locally......other then maybe all the Texas folks, so its not a big deal to discuss.

I currently have a contract where I am just doing basically a floorplan, and making the houses look good in 3D to be used as a sales tool for a large group of dealers. I am being paid per square foot and unfortunately can't disclose that exact amount, however it works out to be anywhere from $30-$150 per hour, depending on how complicated it is, and how many questions I have to ask on this forum.

[FWD]

I have been a drafter for 25 years and I would have to say that just like any job pay is in direct relation to experience. But if you are freelancing it is basically whatever clients will pay.

Eventually however you'll find out what competitors are charging and you'll probably have to find a happy medium that will keep the work flowing. It is surprising though how many clients go for low price only and could care less about seeing your work unless it is a luxury home.

I charge by the square foot generally for new homes($1.75 presently) and similarly for additions that often includes a lower SF fee for the existing area. If I have to design or there will be engineering involved I'll up the SF price a bit. When doing freelancing for remodeling firms often they tell you what they pay. Generally they pay per scope of work such as 1 story or 2 story addition which may be in $900-1400 range.

Where I live clients will not pay a drafter/designer per construction cost
or even by hour . It is too open ended. This may work for architects or interior designers as this is a more formal work arrangement that generally follows AIA guidlines IIRC.


Dan

[zoome]

I'll try to contribute here.

I truly believe the answer to this question cannot be the same for all parts of the country - or beyond. The scope of work certainly is more in California than it is here in northeast Ohio.

First, I do not make my sole income from plan preparation, although I do use chief primarally for that purpose. I am a custom home builder who in the for the past 4 years relied solely on the proceeds from the construction of new homes. I learned that the hills and valleys were too extreme to for me to handle on my own.

I am using Chief to stablize a portion of my income. That means that I am still building custom homes (25% to 60% of my time) and preparing construction documents for other builders the balance of my time. The reason for this is that I can count on a fairly even flow of income from the construction documents whereas the new home construction is much more variable.

As far as rates, I have been using a flat fee approach - but, I have found that this method needs some tweeking. I generally charge $800 for a full set of plans (4 elevations, foundation, first floor, second floor, typical details and section) This price includes One full size set printed on either C or D size sheets with a few very simple renderings on 13X19 (since I can do that in house on my HP 1220) I should note that I have a good array of details that I have assembled over the years so the Typical section is a simple insert into the layout page. I do not include cross sections in the base price.

This price point seems to work but, occasionally I get a more complicated set of construction documents (complicated house) and my per hour price takes a huge hit. With my base price, I can do well on a fairly simple ranch or two-story (under 2800 S.F.) but some of the more complicated houses are not paying for themselves.

Other things that I add to the price of a construction document sets are:
- Finished Basements
- Walk out Basements
- Upgraded Renderings (Landscaping and Exterior Walks and Drives Added)
- Interior Renderings

Hope this helps.

Zoome

[alobartn]

Dan,

How do you choose what to draw? Are you designing these houses, or fulfilling the contractors' or homeowners' design?

[zoome]

I generally work only for a few chosen builders. Fairly consistent product, some repete plans (same plans with minor changes). Same specs and details. All jobs are either pre sold or builder spec homes. So, the specs and inclusions are well defined. There is not alot of trial and error design or many revisions. Turn around time is usually a week - When the large format prints are delivered - they are usually built from. Maybe 1 in 5 need to be revised and reprinted. Sometimes, I giev them a 13x19 review set in the middle of the process to go over questions. This helps to reduce the large format reprints.

I prefer working with a few repete customers than many one time deals. I have found that they know what to expect in the drawings and I can tweek my output to suit their needs. Each plan set seem sto get better and better as I learn their program.

I would go crazy trying to work fixed fee for single use customers. There is a customer learing curve - It takes a few sets for them to convey what they expect as far as standard windows, cabinets, door openings, fireplaces,railings, garage elevations ...

Does that answer your question?

Zoome

[alobartn]

Yes, thanks!

[DALE]

When I was in southern CA I made one amount. Moved to Florida and nearly starved to death. Moved back to Northern CA and make more than three times others do in other parts of the country. However I pay three times for just about everything else also. I know prevailing wages in the San Francisco bay area are over 40 bucks right now. In Orlando area they might be up to 18 dollars by now. Designers might make about prevailing wage, Architects and Engeneers make more and so on.

Relativity

[RMorrison]

I feel compelled to stick my nose in here. It is NOT a good idea to try to compare "prevailing wages" with an hourly rate to be charged as a self-employed person, except perhaps to judge if you'd be better off working for someone else.

1) Employees have a much higher billable ratio than a self-employed person. An employee can often get close to 100% billable hours in a day; as a one-person business, I'm happy to get 50% billable.

2) Employees have virtually zero overhead costs (for themselves). I figure about 50% of my gross goes to overhead.

If I were to bill at, say, $100/hr., with a 50% efficiency, that equates to a net "effective" rate for me of $50/hr. If 50% of THAT goes to overhead, then for every $100 I bill, only $25 shows up as personal income. (In the SF Bay Area, $25/hr. wages is not easy to live on.) I would be much better off to go work for someone else.

I have posted elsewhere about the pitfalls of hourly billing, and why it should be avoided. (The primary reason is that it penalizes you for improving your efficiency. If you get twice as fast, you make 1/2 as much. What kind of reward program is that? And are you now worth only 1/2 as much to your client?)

[DALE]

Good points Richard, I see we are neighbors.

Only half skilled workers make 25 dollars an hour on the peninsula from SF to silicon valley. I'm don't do design work for a living so I can't really peg an amount. I do design build general contracting, but not typically for hire. I buy fixers in the right neighborhood and invest 200K-300K in a speculation.

Before CA adopted the new 2003 earthquake codes I could have someone draw a set of plans for a 1000 ft. room add for about a thousand dollars, that was a deal 5 years ago. Now everything over 500 sq. ft. gets to have a wet stamp add on another 1500. Cities are asking much more money for plan check and building fees also. New energy requirements other than title 24, with outside HVAC testing is required.

I just drew a floor plan, persectives and elevations for a friend of mine, he had a hard time finding someone who would draw his plans for less than 10K. in the infamous Redwood City area.

So for the cost of plans, engeneering, title 24, CA addition to the 2003 UBC and the cost of plan check and permit fees in this area can easily cost 20K which in many parts of the country would be total costs for the room addition itself. The cost of a room add, including a master suit with bath, nicely done with marble floor and tub, custom cabs and fixtures with nice workmanship can cost 150K which would build a whole house in most parts of the country.

But I think its all relative.

[DALE]

Richard,

Are you a busy man?
I have some design problems and need a professional architect such as yourself. I work with another gentleman who is an engineer. We trade work very well because I am very strong with design and he is a licensed engineer. We trade and I contract with him for drawings. However, what I have to deal with is a design spatial problem with a transition from the first floor to the second.

Its just a quick job really, if you think you have the time.

Email me if you wish to discuss it further.

Wbfinc@comcast.net

[WendyWelton]

Richard,

How right you are, about the amount of billable time a self employed person produces. That's why the multiple of anywhere from 2x to 3x (in some cases even 4x) is important.

ALL, IF YOU ARE CHARGING $15 AN HOUR, IN REALITY YOU MAKING LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE

I also agree that charging hourly has its pitfalls, but so can fixed fee. I've found that if the client has no vested interest in reaching a decision, they can really drag you through excessive "what if"s. I now do Schematic Design strictly hourly, and the Construction Documents on a fixed fee - at least when I can. Sometimes even that is hourly, if I can't define the scope well enough to put a fixed fee on it. Design Development can go either way - I'll roll it into the fixed fee if the client is on a deadline (which helps drive them to decisions in a timely manner). Bid Phase and Construction Phase right now are completely hourly - too much of it depends on how many contractors they interview, how decisive they are and how things go during construction.

One thing I don't do anymore is put a "not to exceed" on hourly work. I'll give them an estimate, but I make it real clear what that estimate is based on, and let them know when exploring yet another option is likely to put us over the estimate.

Bottom line - even for those of us who dearly love what we do, it's still not a hobby! Anybody who's charging $15 an hour needs to take a representative month and account for all their time, billable and otherwise. Multiply both your hours and your income by 12. Then take all your overhead costs and come up with an appropriate number for the year - the equipment purchases, software purchases and upgrades, training seminars, ink cartridges, gas for the car, paper, pens, internet connection.... And by the way, don't delude yourself into thinking that computer is a one time purchase and doesn't count. It will be obsolete in 2 or 3 years - count at least some of it.

If you're doing this as a hobby that pays for itself, and maybe a little pin money, that's one thing. If you're just starting out, need to be self supporting, and charging $15 an hour - you're in reality probably going in the hole each and every month.

Wendy

[WendyWelton]

Because I give a crap -

A couple of excellent books:

- The E-Myth Revisited, by Michael E. Gerber. Most excellent book that gets the heart of why people start off all excited and hopeful, and what separates the ones that succeed from the ones that give up and go back to Dilbert Land. Highly recommended, and I don't know of any other that quite hits the nail on the head like this one.

- The Small Business Survival Guide, by Robert E. Fleury. It's good, it's concise, it's even kinda fun reading. There are many others that are also very good, this is just the one I grabbed.

Wendy's small business survival guide, (free of charge!):

1. Start good accounting practices immediately if not sooner.

a) Either get a good book and take the time to do it by hand, or buy a good software program and use it. Even the cheapest starter edition of QuickBooks or Peachtree or whatever will give you the basics.

b) Separate your business and personal finances. Easy now, hard later.

2. Actually use the information you get from that. Do what you must to get that all important early work, but if you're taking a loss to do it, be honest with yourself about that fact so you can move to break even as soon as possible.

3. Get legal advise, then do written agreements. This is important even if you are doing work for the same folks over and over. Get it now while you are forming those relationships. It's a lot easier to change the course of a small boat going slowly than a big boat with a full head of steam.

4. Start a marketing program, however rudimentary.

a) Absolutely required - carry business cards and hand them out at every decent opportunity. You don't have to be that tacky salesmen that monopolizes social situations. When people ask what you do, tell them, take that extra 15 seconds to demonstrate some passion for it and give them a card.

b) Make every client count. A satisfied client will tell 1 or 2 friends, an ecstatic one will go out of their way to sell you, and an unhappy client will go out of their way to tell 10 friends not to hire you. That's a well documented phenomon (happy tells 1 or 2, unhappy tells 10 or 12). Make sure that every client, even ones you have problems with, are referenceable in the end. You want them to at least feel you were fair and stepped up to the plate. Getting paid matters. This sometimes matters more.

c) Then move on to the other stuff - advertising, press releases, etc.

5. Stay flexible. Opportunities change. You will change. Technology will change. The market will change. Change with it.

Love,
Wendy