Who says clients don't pay for modeling?

[mcqueenhomes]

I can and have produced a terrain from a plot plan. Unless it's really gnarly terrain that's usually fairly easy.

But when a customer gets a whim to design a house or remodel getting a survey isn't the first thing they do. They want someone to come out and look.

Using a construction rod probably works... but you're forgetting the original problem... I can't get to the site. Most new building is going on "out-of-bounds" of the city's transportation system (if there is one).

One time I did have somebody want me to look at their house enough to be willing to drive me there and back.

All of this would be solved, of course, if I managed to find a builder to work with. His clients could call me if they needed something laid out and mine could call him if they needed something built.

[lbuttery]

Jason:

Sorry, I was aware of the original problem. I should have stated that the appriaser or whoever you hire could use the construction rod or a stick with marks on it with a string being used instead of the disto laser. The point being that if the customer wants "real" terrain info the cost of getting that info can be added to their bill or they can do it to save the cost.

[mcqueenhomes]

Oh, I see.
But still, to get their house I'd still need them to come to me at least initially. I'm used to calling a contractor and they come out and look at my house. If I want to interview four roofers, for example, I'm not running all over town to go to their offices. Are designers different? Do people actually come to your office?

[lbuttery]

There are some Chiefers who do their work thru the internet, via floorplans,photos,etc. You have the appraiser do the onsite measurement and photos and you build the model.

Yes, you should be able to get some of the clients to come to your house or to meet at a coffee house, etc. Lots of people conduct business that way. You meet and greet and if they are interested they will come to your house to see a demo of what Chief can do. Your "helper" collects the data and you model.

I just received an email from a potential client from out-of-state and wants to know if I'm interested in working on his project.

Start thinking outside the box

[gpickren]

Jason, all of the issues you addressed were those which would be appropriate if you were to be the designer with the direct relationship with the client, not a subcontractor assisting a busy designer. The designer or contractor who goes to the site, meets the client , inspects the existing conditions, looks in the attic, and the defines the scope of the potential job so as to enter into a contract to proceed with schematics has done all the things you describe. He many even have a guy now who does his measurements for him. Depends on how busy he is.

Your job would then be to take the sketch with measurements from whoever gave it to you and draft the as-builts as I said with a as builit CAD detail underneath and return the file all ready for him to do the design. This procedure is not hard and fast and reqiures coordination with the designer/contractor who is YOUR CLIENT, not the homeowner (we are talking sub relationships here).

For example, the renderring attached below was produced from scratch with estimated meaurements. The only measurements I have any confidence on are those on the front wall the addtion is to be attached to. So to begin preliminary drawings I would prefer to start with a fresh as built to make sure I didn't miss something.

This would not be a big job for you, but it would be helpful to me if you could fit my schedule.

There could be times when I might do the interior, rough out the shell and then like to have someone detail the exterior, solve some roof details and send back to me to present to the client. For example, I am working on a job right now where there is an existing double gable with some funky partial returns which at my level of familiarity with Chief will take far more time. If I was just giving the clients a still picture I might just plant a tree or crop this out of the picture, but see the whole idea to show them the new house with its facelift, so I really need to be accurate. Since no construction will take place there I don't care if the modeling is sturcturally honest.. I just want the look.

This is why I say sometimes you just have to try it first. Jason you are coming out of a company full of engineers and an extremely anal environment. I find to put a business system you cannot follow the formula of Ready, Aim, Fire because it invariably turns into Ready, Aim ...., Aim ......Aim.... Aim. and never pull the trigger to fire. A better way is Ready, Fire, Aim, Fire. This is comparable to artillery in the pretech days. First a shot was fired to establish a starting point for correction, then the aim was adjusted until the fire was brought onto the target. It is a process of continuing retargeting and refiring.

To start you just have to take your best shot knowing in advance it won't be perfect.

[gpickren]

Oh, yeah, the rendering.

[gpickren]

By the way, Jason, I want you to know that you are not the only Chief user who has created an architectural detail. I call your attention to the Mag Lev driveway in the model above. In addition to being an aesthetic preference, Mag Lev also serves to protect against unforseen earth movements and renders Simpson panels obsolete. I expect an early adoption as the preferred solution for slide, expansive soil and fault conditions. Perhaps you would like to try a Mag Lev Melissa patio.

[Niuoka]

Jason,
I think witht he information you have supplied us with your abilities and lack of some abilities. You have a good niche as being able to produce renderings and detail, where as others may not.
Me for example. With years of condtruciton experience and my husband and dad still at it, I cna come up with floor plans and construction drawings. I have not had time to figure out the finear art of ray tracing, water color renderings, snow convered homes, the way you have and demonstrated on your web site.
I think the niche for yo is good, to be able to work out of your home and detail others work. And in your other posts ( other threads) you mention moving out to horse country, where you might be best at all of this , over the internet, and in an area where the cost of living isnt so outrageous.
thats the situation I am in, small town, safe, comfortable.

I think your rate is pretty fair , for here in the NorthWest , and am surprised what some charge in the bigger cities, as someone in this town charging 3 a sq ft would have to be Frank Lloyd Wright.
Many of the full blown licenced ARCHITECTS are under 1.5 a sq

temaed up, if I was charging my standard sq ft price ( does not include engineering) and your render fees, we could both make a comfortable living
and really isnt that waht it is all about.
I am not usggesting teaming up right now, but who knows in the future

But I think that is what you have been suggesting, teaming up with others.

Lorin

[gpickren]

Thanks, Lorin, you raise some great points. One of the reasons those in the cities can charge big fees is that they HAVE TO. Otherwise, they cannot afford to live there and be able to sell the jobs. Especially for remodeling jobs, some have to be there. To sell the jobs, to build the jobs, to expedite the plans with the cities, etc.

A 60's tract house in fair condition in a fair neighborhood in Orange Country now costs well over $500,000. The guys who remodel such a house have to charge rates that might seem very high by small town rural standards just so they can afford their own dumpy little 60's house. But, they can afford to outsource design work to those who live in more affordable areas who can get more than they can charge in their small town but less than if they were living in the town making their own sales. Not to mention the fact that they can get more work than that is available in their town.

If the Chief users can network using each others strengths everyone can benefit. Where the system breaks dow is if people start coveting what someone else is making even thought what they are receiving is very fair by their local standards.

My personal goal is to teach contractors locally how to work with me. First, I sell and design the jobs for them. In doing so I show them how to sell design build. My objective is to replace myself as the salesperson so I can move to my place in the mountains. I cannot make enough money in that little mountain town to be able to afford to live there. But, when I live there I can do so for far less than it costs here. So when I move, I would want to reduce my fees to provide an incentive for the contractor to make the sale, handle the measuring, and city work himself either doing it himself or subbing it out depending on his work load.

Look, this is the nature of the construction business. A contractor may have a crew that can do foundations and framing. But then he gets some opportunities for increased business but his crew can't handle it. So on certain jobs he subs out the foundations and/or the framing. It is the same thing with design provided we are working on a common standard.

Chief provides that if we learn how to use the tools and how to work with each other.

I read the comments about the advantages of Autocad in certain areas of plan production. Now I know one thing for sure I don't have time to learn two systems. So if a situation presents itself where someone experienced in Autocad can remove a production bottleneck. Well, Hallelujah! They should do the work and free me up to sell another job while the market is still available.

[mcqueenhomes]

teamed up, if I was charging my standard sq ft price (does not include engineering) and your render fees, we could both make a comfortable living

You'll have to forgive me, Lorin, this is a long thread. Are you referring to the current rate, $16/hour, or the potential future rate when I go full-time, $25-$30/hour? This is an important factor since much of my work is for builders... both myself and a builder need to make it.

gpickren, like the MagLev driveway. Perfect if you're Bo & Luke Duke, allows for practicing the jumps in the General Lee.

The rest of you, thank you so much for your input. The big move is now inside six months so your knowledge of the business is extremely helpful. I have a two-year degree in electronics and eight years in a microchip factory so I know little about either business or construction. I'm giving myself a little time and room to learn, though.

[gpickren]

Jason, regarding your heading -- it is Ready, FIRE, Aim, Fire. You pull the trigger even when you don't know exactly what you are shooting at. Then, and this is very important, you pause to recollect yourself and inspect the damage, now that you have a better idea what you are shootiing at you Aim and fire again. You keep repeating this until you are on target.

Two common misstakes are analysis paralysis. Trying to assess all the unklnowns before starting. Or, getting so caught up in what you do that you don't realize you are wasting ammunication.

In this latter area, accounting plays a big part. Many people go into business and don't know if they are making a profit or not because they are running their business by their checkbook balance. This is a common failing of contractors.

[mcqueenhomes]

I'll have to research accounting too. Especially taxes.

I once read in Builder magazine that they would benefit from something called "accrual accounting." Too bad they don't have a "Home Designer" mag like Builder. Unlike contractors, however, I have little if any payouts for materials and employees before the checks come in. As long as my ISP & web host are UP, and my computer is UP, I'm set. (FYI: UP or UP TO PROD are originally terms describing the production readiness state of factory equipment).

I don't really have any recognized accounting system yet. However, I do keep track of what is "due" as I earn it (I keep a descriptive job log with hours and it calculates money based on that) and also what I expect to spend, such as setting a monthly budget for the yearly Chief upgrade, the new computer every 3rd year, etc.

As far as "analysis paralysis" goes, I'm not waiting to figure everything out before I start. I'm just figuring out as much as I can while I finish building up my savings and getting my house ready and sell it so I can move.

[RMorrison]

Jason:

I don't want to tell you how to run your business, but I would seriously reconsider the concept of hourly billing.

Especially as you get faster, your reward for becoming more and more efficient will be to make less and less. And then you'll need to either raise your rates or try to get more work to fill the void. If you provide $500 worth of VALUE, what difference does it make to the buyer that it took you 20 hours or 5 hours? I have suggested it before on this forum, but a great (and relatively inexpensive) book for getting your head on straight about pricing is Alan Weiss's "How to Maximize Fees in Professional Service Firms". ($7 at Amazon). It's a small book, but filled with excellent advice.

[Niuoka]

gpickern,
outsourcing within the same state is interesting, or even same country.
I am aware that those that live in a high cost of living area , have to charge high to survive there
However, while some might be saying to Jason to charge 3 a sq ft or 40 an hour, might make a fair living in their area, in the area of the northwest where Jason and I live, that is a fortune.
so I was trying to make a point of charge what is compfrotable and covers your bills and your happy with, that keeps you in the game, and for where you live

Jason, sure all of us want to be well off and happy,
for me I learned a while back , no matter how much I made, I always ran short, because the toys just got more expensive
So after I relized what my family needed for me to supply, and then a littel fun money, Ive based my hours and fees on that. Anything above that is gravy.

16 an hour is cheap. However as a part time job, thats good. Full time at 25 is about normal.. around here (Eugene) for a non-degree limited exposure designer.
Being self employed, ther are times I work for 10cents an hour, and at very rare times 100 an hour,
But hey , what do I know, im new to this field, and Im a woman.

[gpickren]

Your accounting can easily be handled with Quicken, or at least Quickbooks. As a self-employed proprietor cash accounting is appropriate. Just remember as self-employed you pay all of your payroll taxes and don't get caught living off your gross income without a reserve for taxes. The IRS frowns on using THEIR money.

If you do e-plans, I would look for a way to get e-paid. If you can't drive you don't want to take a cab to the bank and you don't want to deal with mail. Be careful of accounts receivable. The best way to manage accounts receivable is to not have any. I make sure I stay ahead of the client with deposits.

If I was doing business with you I would want to pay you by electronic transfer. I can pay anyone that way through BofA Billpay, but if you are not set up to receive it, I will click transfer but Bof A will mail you a check. If you are setup, I click and the second day it is in your bank and you can see it in your banking online screen.