Who says clients don't pay for modeling?

[gpickren]

In California there is another big issue to be considered. The city requirements. They are all different and create all sorts of over coverage formulas, sometimes a design review process, all of which must be researched by someone who has to take the responsibility. In many cases on remodels it could take more time, and $2.25 gas just to deal with the city than it does to do the design work. Someone who gets 2% for drafting doesn't have to deal with this, and I assure you it is the least enjoyable part of the the business.

And here the plans will always require corrections. I am certain that if I submitted a new plan for a house next door to one which was already approved and submitted the identiical corrected plan there will be corrections. Even on the same job if the corrections are reviewed by another plan checker he will add things and you can do nothing about it. These people all have their own personal preferences, as well as personal interpretations of the code.

Some areas of the country, like Florida, are very easy in comparison, so I submit to you that the price per foot on drafting is just like a homeowner saying what does it cost per foot to do a remodel. What is in the foot? If it includes a Viking range and hood it is about $1600 per foot.

In pricing it is important to always consider the value added. That will vary greatly. Tim further supported my point saying the DC designer did work for several contractors. I will bet you anything that he is doing most of the sales work in the client meeting and they probably use him for that reason. Actually, if a contractor could sub out his sales and design work that would be the smartest thing that most could do for that is the greatest weakness of contractors. Yet, I have also spoken with contractors who resented the money the salesman made. It really helps when the salesman does the design because the fee is bundled all together, but the DC guys 6% is a 2-3% drafting charge, a 2-3% sales commission and perhaps a 1% city plan shepherding fee all together.

Anyone who can make deals happen is worth easily 2 - 4% right there, plus the design work.

[James Eggert]

This is a great thread regarding different pricing issues. The variety of ways to achieve your desired rate is only limited by how you present what you can do. There will always be someone who wants it cheaper, just like a builder or remodeler who sometimes has a potential client who mentions cost every other sentence. I am a design/builder so I can bring both sides to the table.

A service is sold for whatever you sell it for. Simple enough when said, but in most cases the higher prices are based on what you bring to the table. If I want to spend my time doing work for another builder, the compensation is set at an agreeable rate. This rate may be discounted when compared to strickly a design for a homeowner. However, the constant in both of these situations is "What else are you bringing to the table?". Design in and of itself could be simplified to moving or adding walls and doors, adding space or alloting space for different solutions, specifying materials to achieve an end result, offering changes to something that a client can't determine or visualize, etc. Remember, I used the term simple, I'm not trying to analyze the whole thing. But an important part of that design process not only involves space relationships but it requires, I'll say it again, REQUIRES, your input into how materials and technologies and new products can be incorporated into the desired end design! What good is the design if the HVAC chases aren't thought out? What else do you leave to the contractor on site to "solve himself" because the design fees didn't allow enough time to provide these details and suggestions? How can you design anything without thinking about in the back of your mind how to get from point A to Point B. When I design, structural aspects, at least for me, are foremost in my mind because of the builder part. It doesn't matter if I am the builder or someone else is; they will need this info and it needs to be thought out before, rarely later "we can add a beam to solve that!".

I guess what I'm saying is look at what design means to you and what it means to your client. Develop that correlation and then adjust your prices accordingly. My market does not allow a 5% increase! It allows whatever I want that increase to be!

Because of what I bring to the Table!

[lbuttery]

That is one reason why we are getting 2-3% instead of 6%

We do design and working documents only. We are not architects or engineers so we can't do structural. The builder gives us the details and we fit into the plan and documents.

We give the builder floorplan prints and his team sketches the HVAC,plumbing,elec diagrams and then we enter onto the plan and documents.

the value we bring is the builder and customer get to see everything in 3D and the perspectives/renders etc are Chief created instead of being "hand drawn" in autocad.

[architect4stars]

I will work for food. lol

[James Eggert]

Lew
Please don't misunderstand me; I think 3% for certain projects is a fair price. 3% of a $500k house is nice, but I'm not there yet either, and I'm not making a comment on what anybody charges. Now Jason thought he could only go up 5% from whatever he set for a price? Why? If your price is fair and then it's time to raise it because of more expenses, more time involved marketing, more of this and more of that I would raise my rates in an increment of say $10 or $20 per hour keeping mind what else I am offering. This new rate should be acceptable to new clients; it's the old clients you may need to ease up the scale! I'm only using Jason's 5% as an example as it appeared in this thread.

I was only hoping others would think about what else they are actually providing so they can continue to sell themselves for a rate they feel is fair. I think many clients don't know "what else" is actually involved with the development of a design. Those are valuable inclusions which a designer needs to have in their bag of experience! Then you can determine what is fair....for you!

[mcqueenhomes]

I may be cheaper than other designers but there are also services that other designers provide that I can't, due to a physical limitation or lack of expereience or both.

My problem is, if the going rate for a designer is X, what percentage of X do I actually do (and can fairly charge for?

[gpickren]

It is not that simple. Let's say you can do 30% of what a more experienced designer can do. First off, the 30% you can do may not be linear, meaning the first, last or even middle 30%. Second, the client still has the other 70% that someone has to do. So if they subbed it out to you it would have to save them time and save them money, otherwise they are better off doing it themselves. If you can do 30% unassisted and need to be trained to gain a majority of the other 70% then part of your compensation is the training you get from the person you work for. For him to be willing to do that, you A. must work cheaper to justify his time teaching you and B. he would want you to work for him for a reasonable time at the lower, or possibly a somewhat higher rate, long enough to give him a return on his investment.

If the design process is being done in an assembly line fashion, then he would train you for certain things where you could be productive.

One would be asbuilts. I am sure you could do a fine job on that now. If a designer has enough work he might be happy to have you produce the as builts so he can work on selling new jobs for example. So he puts you in touch with his measurement guy and you follow up with him, get the sketch layout and the photos and you knock out an as built, place an asbuilt cad detail underneath and send him the file all ready to go. Then, he an go right to work on the new design.

Another area is rendering. Takes time selecting the materials and setting up the lighting, etc. Now this is perhaps more toward the title of the thread. Does he do and want this. If so, maybe after doing the design he sends the file back to you to clean up, detail and render a few camera views.

Some this can only work when you are an assistant, even an e-assistant. Others can be stand alone services.

The problem for you right now is that you don't know what you are worth, but you see that varies with the need of the person. YOu are worth more perhaps to one than another. Only the person paying you knows his cost and time saved. This is the whole issue when any employer hires someone.

They hire to gain production or to do jobs they cannot or do not want to do. The job market tends to set rates for draftsman which is reasonably consistent within a given area. But, as you get into these other services you just have to throw it out into the marketplace.

If you find the right people to work for, they will look for a win-win situation. So you just agree on a number, even an arbitrary number that you both can live with temporarily and try it. Then sit down and measure each others expectations with experience. Agree ahead of time that it is temporary.

Now, the best way is to find a way to add value. Let's say that you connect with a design build contractor who does the entire plans for 2% and you say that you think that by using you and Chief and 3D he can get 6% and have you do all the drafting up to get it ready for construction documents. So 4% is added to his fee, arguably his job size will increase as well as clients can see what they are getting, plus he has you now doing a third to half of the work. What is that worth to him?

So you negotiate and cut a deal. But first you have to try it and see if it works. You know business skills have a market value also.

[mcqueenhomes]

I don't have to visit the site to do as-builts? I can't drive, so I thought that was something I couldn't do.

[lbuttery]

Jason:

Just hire a local appraiser to do the measurements.

I have already talked to some as I can't do ladders.

You just have to make it clear that they need to measure "everything" as they are used to doing sqft only,
not how far is the window from the door how tall is the window, how wide, how far from the floor, etc.

[mcqueenhomes]

What about site conditions (slopes, trees, views, etc.)?

[gpickren]

Also, remember that there are many architects and well as contractor and designers who still and draw, so you can also produce as much as they can use like elevations and sections. The elevations they can doctor and add to. The sections they can alter or trace over. Either way it should save them a good deal of time getting started. Then, if they send you the working drawings you can study them and begin to learn what they and the city require.

As you probably know, you can remote print the plans for them at a blueprint house. Which raises the question. Can Kinko's print 24 x 36?

[mcqueenhomes]

I have thought about supplying incomplete plans... even as stock. Every town's different anyway, right? Why charge for exact structural detail when it will have to be changed (and paid for again) anyway? There should be at least some value in floor plans and elevations, right? If not for the drawings themselves, then in efficiency and aesthetics of the design I would imagine.

Plotting 24x36... That I CAN do. I have a B&W plotter 'cause I'm not spending 2 hours to back & forth on the city bus to get a set of plans on paper. It also helps me plot incoming CAD in a size I can see.

[gpickren]

The appraiser is used to handling view photos. An appraisal needs them. You just want him to mark the camera view on his layout sketch.

If you get out your map you will find that most of the inhabited area of the US is flat. If you are not going to the property physically you are not limited to Washington hillsides. Nor, do I gather you are going around making personal sales calls, so open up the box. The market is greatly enlarged'

We have a fair number of hillsides here as the news is occasionally reminding you and I stay away from them. With 30 million people, there are plenty of flat lots. With the volume of business available now, I am considering avoiding two story homes as well. Now, you would need to serve your clients, but they also will have to accommodate your situation. If you cannot contract out what you need or the contractor or designer cannot supply, then move on. There are 300 million in the country. Many, many flat lots.

[gpickren]

The reason I mention Kinko's is it is owned by FedEx. You can remote print documents which they will deliver or in many areas there are so many it is easy for the contractor or designer to pick up. Might be little quicker and cheaper than shipping overnight from your end.

[lbuttery]

Yes, Kinko's can do 24 x 36

Jason, if the lot is an issue there are ways to get the terrain
off the surveys or GPS or the sat photos. See my earlier posting about terragen and all the ref's about terrain data.

I purchased a 13' construction rod so that I can place it in the street and then using the disto on the ground at the front corner of the house shoot the laser to the rod and that gives me the elevation difference. do the same at the rest of the corners of the house and then at the back of the lot or other places as the terrain changes and you have a basic contour map to plot in.

If it's more that 13' it'll probably be on the survey.

You can also have an engineering firm do a site survey which is more detailed than a "settlement" survey. I had mine done for $450 here in DC area. Probably cheaper elsewhere.

Just bill the customer for this service or else model the as-built on a flat terrain pad with enough elevation changes to justify the stairs to the house (front,back,side). If they want better they can pay for it.