Who says clients don't pay for modeling?

[Chris M]

Hello gpickren
It was pure coincedence that i had just posted the last reply, while browsing I found your comments regarding the artists approach FYI i thought you might find my post interesting-But, did you read the last post ,you didnt acknowledge it? Anyway No ones questioning chiefs ability to offer front end presentations on the fly.The debate is on at what stage should the presentations kick in.From your point of view ie sales you'r correct from mine building-there are many issues-when your presentations arent correct eg price,detail, Data, customisation/localisation, translating etc..The Lowest Common Denominator in the office is still hand drawings and flatline. If you need clarification post on the other board?
HTH

[gpickren]

Chris, I had not read the latter post. It came in while I was writing mine. In my opinion the presentation should begin at the first appointment. That does not mean that we would necessarily present a design for them, but demonstrate how we go about the design process and show how other designs were developed. For example we sold one client by showing him the red trimmed house above and then the other example and explained to him why the homeowner likely could not see what he was getting. This client picked up on this right away.

All my designing is for design build so the budget is of utmost importance up front. I was a lender for 30 years so I am not in the habit of leaving the budget development in the hands of the client anymore than I would simply go out and draft their design sketch. Homeowners have no idea what their budget should be or how to go about it.

As to drafting, if I had someone who was an efficient and accurate draftsman I wouldn't care how he did it. Autocad, hand drawing, whatever. However, these seem to be quite rare so I am attempting to see exactly how much of the construction drawings can be templated. This is not my area of expertise, nor does it have great appeal to me, but I recognize there are those who are gifted in this area. It is like bookkeeping. I hate to do it, but recognize how critical it is and that a good one is worth her weight in gold. I say her simply because all the good ones I ever had were women.

My whole point in this thread simply is that if one is considering the modeling to be a separate product to be sold, that they are missing the greater point. It can be a separate product marketed to builders or other designers as Jason and others are doing, but I think the Larez has the better vision. He appears to be using his models to sell Larez, his design capabilities and his ability to present that to the one who writes the check. If I am a architectural client and I have to choose between a designer who can show me every aspect of my new house and one who can only give me plans that I cannot read or understand, I am going with where I am comfortable and, I believe, that all things being equal the modeling will sell them.

When my slideshow fades from a clients existing house to the new one and he says "wow" I know that I am on target. How many clients go "wow" over a blueprint?

In my experience the only things the clients are interested in seeing are the renderings (live or printed) and the floor plan, in that order. Everything else is for the builder unless the client is an engineer, lawyer or maybe an accountant.

[Chris M]

Hello gpickren
it sounds like you'd be able to Design/sell igloos to eskimos LOL,I use to think the same way years ago,Not so sure now?,we've streamlined most of our processes,so theres no duplication of work,we run very efficiently and we get it right the first time,if the costs doesnt wash out right before we sign contracts we let the clients go.The presentation is the last thing we may do,if we choose to? If you interested check out animationworks it was a plug in developed for VW its right up your alley.for wow factor
http://www.ozcad.com.au/

Good Luck
Cheers

[gpickren]

If the costs don't work we also let the clients go. What is the alternative? Charge them for working drawings and then tell them they cannot afford to build it?

I guess I don't understand what you call "the presentation."

[Michael S]

Construction documents are an excellent communication tool for those given the task of building anything from a light bulb to a cruise ship. The more detailed the drawings, (if done well) the better the end product. Accurate, detailed information in the hands of subs is essential, but the subs understanding of the over all vision is not.
Where construction documents fail, is when we try and use them to communicate with people unfamiliar with the language they contain.
Viewing 3d modeling and rendering as simply a wow tool, misses an important point and opportunity. 3D modeling and renderings are to the homeowner what construction drawings are to the subs.
The tools a chef needs to prepare a meal and the tools a waiter needs to communicate what is being prepared are quite different.

[mcqueenhomes]

Inside every manufactured housing dealership is a catalog with the floor plan of every house they sell. A few of them are on display on the lot.

Not everyone can read a floor plan and get a sense of what the house is like.

Once I watched a manufactured home dealership miss a sale because the appropriate size manufactured home for my grandparents was not on the lot. They tried to buy a home that was on the lot but it was significantly larger and turned out to be too expensive to finance comfortably.

Perhaps the sale would have went through if they had my modling and rendering and VRML service at the dealership. I can do a complete manufactured home for rendering and VRML for less than $200. Would it be worth the $200 if it meant selling a $50,000 house? What it they used the renderings and VRML again that year and managed to sell 3 or 4 more of them than they would have before?

[dgavin]

Jason,

you need to raise your prices!

[mcqueenhomes]

That price is for a mfg. home, which is a box on a rack, and without construction docs. It's about a day's work. Future price increases are planned but will depend largely on market demand.

[dgavin]

Jason,

Just some things to consider:

-it is not reasonable (IMHO) to be able to design 8 hrs a day. Probably about 5-6 productive hours + or -.

-Once prices are established it can be hard to raise them. So don't start too low.
-Don't forget about overhead. software and computer updates, supplies, insurance(all kinds) rent(even at home) etc.
-Something is only as valuable as what it costs. If it is cheap it has less value.(human nature)

You do good work ( I have seen it)
I hope I am not overstepping my bounds. Please forgive me if I am.

[mcqueenhomes]

I want to have reasonable rates. Believe me I'd love to raise them but I have a few things in mind.

1. If the economy turns back down in the housing market I want to stay in business. I don't want to ever have to set foot in a semiconductor factory ever again. Ever. Or have to work in the dead of night again. Ever.
2. Since I can't drive, I can't do the part of the custom design process where I'd normally visit the site.
3. I want to be able to keep enough work coming in consitently that I can make my bills.
4. My house will be paid for by the time I start. Also since I can't drive I have no car payment or insurance. That's the major support for the low rate: very low overhead. When I do start full-time I will have to raise rates to account for broadband internet and long-distance, tax preparation/accounting, and possibly some kind of liability insurance.
5. I don't yet do plans for permits or stock. I just don't have the experience. I can do the 3D and floor plans and can be darn productive but I'm weak in the 2D. To start out with, I'll probably offer plan conversion from ACAD to Chief to get a feel for plans.

Also, I'm not sure what a good reasonable rate is for what I do, since I don't "do it all." I know others charge more but they're also able to offer a greater range of services. I'm pretty sure I can get $20/hr but what I'd really like is $25-$30. Ideally I'd like to be about the same as the total employee cost of a draftsman, since most of my work is as a subcontractor for the builder or architect. How much would they be willing to pay? I have no idea, except if I can make it as cheap as I can.

I do plan on about 1/4 of my time being non-design hours. That's a good time to produce advertising, sales, etc.

I can see raising rates might have one more benefit you didn't mention (provided it doesn't scare away work I want): scaring off clients with projects I don't want. I once laid out a floor plan for an architectural monstrosity someone was building back east. He had a ~10,000 sq.ft. design but wanted to reduce the costs so he asked me to shrink it (normally one of my specialties). I told him I'd never done a concrete house. That didn't faze him. I said I'd never done anything that large. He was still there. I told him the absolute truth about why he couldnb't have everything in his design and get the square footage down to what he wanted. I told him if he wanted everything he should go with the original design he had. I was pain in the butt! Still, he kept coming back! Although I didn't do engineering, details, or any plans at all except a floor plan, he paid less than $500 for a layout for an 8000+ square foot house. Definately I should have charged at least twice as much as normal for that one. The client likes the design, even though I think the thing is ridiculous.

[mcqueenhomes]

How about if I raised rates and then lowered them if they turned out to be too high for the market?

[dgavin]

Jason,

You don't have to charge for overhead you don't have. You are also right on about turning away "cheapskates". I have a few basic philosophies:

I'd rather not get a job than get it and wish I hadn't.

I can stay at home doing nothing and not make money. Why should I work and not make money?

You should only get about 1/3 of the jobs you go after. (except for repeat business in an ongoing relationship charged correctly to begin with) If you are getting too much more your rates are too low and visa-versa.
We all start a little lower than we should when starting out but be careful.
Clients won;t let you "grow up" on their dime!

[mcqueenhomes]

Everyone I know works to not make money!

However, I'm thinking that my thinking might be a little backwards. It is easier to lower rates than raise them. If I started low, I suppose I could only raise rates 5% per year. Even if I start out charging $30/hour I only have to get 2 days work a week to make bills. If I get more work, then I can save up for a little nicer house. If I'm a little high, I can lower by a couple bucks to try to get in what I need. There's also allowing for some reasonable future company growth to consider. Don't pros charge $35-$45/hour? Maybe more?

So far work has come to me. That's good for hobby level like I'm doing right now but I'll need to go after it when I go full-time. It helps if I believe in my product, then I'll be able to sell it.

The hobby-level experience has been helpful: I've already laid out 1 high end home, named an architectural feature, worked with 3-4 homeowners via internet, 1 modular home manufacturer, 1 builder, 1 architect, 1 professional designer, 1 draftsman, produced 3-4 sample VRMLs on CD and lots of renderings, built a website, and placed in 1 rendering contest and 1 Chief contest. I've also paid for upgrades, web hosting, the user group trip, toolkits, and other goodies around the house.

[Tim Schrock]

Originally posted by mcqueenhomes
Don't pros charge $35-$45/hour? Maybe more?

Jason,
I would encourage you not to think in a per hour mindset. Business deals are made on a flat fee basis, that's just the way things work. If you are providing a service for a contractor, he is benefiting from your service--and so should you. If you work per hour, the faster you get, the less valuable you become.

While I'm here, I'll throw in my two cents, I've found that the rate received is based on how well the sales process takes place. If the salesman can help the potential client thru a self-discovery process that it would be most beneficial to use the salesman's (or saleswoman's) service, and most definitely heading in the wrong direction not to use the service (client thinks to self: I'd be stupid NOT to use this service), the value of the service goes up. HOWEVER, this is going to require some major behavioral changes in the salesman--cannot go at it trying to sell something. One of the major things that I have used (if I could pick only one) is to tell myself "I am financially independant--I don't need this job/client."

[mcqueenhomes]

Actually, I'd like to convert to using a price per square foot--unfortunately, that's a measurement of the market price I know less about than hourly rates.

I have thought about flat fees, though, except that each project is so different and I haven't got enough similar projects to guess at what flat fees should be. Not only that, flat fees do not take into account the inevitable customer change requests (even when I model a house with a fixed floor plan I still get these requests--change this color, add this trim, change these muntins, etc.) Maybe when I've done a few more I'll be better able to make a simple bid.

If I were doing this full-time and said "I am financially independant--I don't need this job/client." I would be lying to myself. If I were truly financially independent I would probably be in the ministry instead. I have made plans to reduce my overhead and provide a savings cushion, though, so losing a job or client is less impactive and not necessarily a disaster (I do realize that even good businesses lose clients and jobs as a matter of the course of reality).