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I have tried and tried to figure this out... i'm at a loss. I need to create working drawings of my cabinetry (measurments included) so that I can send them to my cabinet builder. Please help! I called Chief and was told that it could be done yet, they won't answer a simple question unless I put up an additional $125! Any help is appreciated...
Commonly cabinet makers already know how to build cabinets and do not need others drawings to build them by.
What is necessary are accurate measurements as to height, depth and width and then text annotations as to the attributes of the special cabinets (slide-out shelves etc).
You do this in both plan view with dimensions and text and also a wall elevation per cabinet wall with dimensions and text.
You would do the same on a drawing board or using any CAD software available.
In my experience when cabinets are custom made my drawings are merely conceptual and the cabinet maker comes to the job site after framing has been completed and does his own measurements and drawings which he then goes over with the client to finalize.
Of course not everyone does as I do and cabinet guys vary in their operating basis.
Big-Box commercial cabinet outfits use spacers and modules to fit their prefab cabinets into the postulated spaces, the spacers designed to make up for discrepancies of design provided these are kept to as close to zero as is possible.
The above has worked for me for over thirty years; anything can be made harder or more complicated by anyone.
It is up to you and the people with whom you work with and associate.
DJP
Cabinet drawings are a separate field and have a certain format that needs to be followed if you expect a professional shop to be able to use your drawings. If you have never done carcass detailing.... you might cause more problems than you have now.
Listen to David. He is giving you the straight skinny as how it is done out there on the job site.
i understand your question adam. as an design and technology teacher by training, and since i thought this forum section was for education purposes, i appreciate your need to produce accurate cabinet drawings. as a teacher i would expect my student, wanting to design and make a cabinet for a school or college project, to be able to produce a detail set of drawings. my answer to you...don't use an architectural drawing program to create details drawings for furniture, cabinets and the like. like david has said above, chief is meant for concept drawings when inserting such objects into a plan and not detailed engineering drawings of items inside buildings. this in no way suggests that the blocks inserted into chief drawings aren't accurate, quite the opposite is the case. however, to create the blocks accurately, you really need a CAD program like vectorworks, turbocad, or autocad (to name a couple of well known ones here in Australian secondary schools).
having said that, i note that vectorworks architect is also a full blown CAD and architectural drawing program in the one. that makes it an incredibly powerful option to chief...i wonder when chief programmers will consider going down that pathway as it is a big failling of an otherwise awesome program? i cant fail chiefs way of thinking and doing. it really does tend to allow the operator to create in the same way he thinks...that really does save time.
kind regards
adam
OK Adam, after a comment like that, I would like to hear why you feel that Chief is not a "full blown CAD program".
Um - me too. I only open my astuff and astuff knockoffs when I'm forced to. I have literally hundreds of sets of full blown construction drawings, with details thank you very much, to show that Chief is a full blown program. If you don't think it is, I suspect you don't know how to use it. Yep. I dove right in and said all that out loud. Oops.
And - Adam - the way to do what you want is to use the back clipping section camera to cut a section through the cabinet in question, then use the cad tools to add to the section as generated by Chief.
I agree with the others that 99% of cabinet folks will not only not need this, but will see you providing it as a sign of either inexperience or over-finickiness. What they actually need is a 1/2" scale floor plan, with the cabinets dimensioned and labeled, and 1/2" elevations with the same labels and dimensions.
If you really do want to do shop drawings, it's just adding more information at a larger scale.
Tools for you to learn - Back Clipping Section Camera - your cad tools (line, box, etc) - how to control the size of text and arrows in dimensions - text with line tool - regular text tool. If you get into actual shop drawings, look at how to apply fill to closed polylines. All of these are in your book and/or the videos. Pay no attention to us poking at each other and come back with more specific questions once you've gotten started.
your answer Allen is right in front of us all.
firstly, this is an education forum isnt it.
perhaps this guy might want shop drawings because his teacher wants them as part of a project (i dont remember anyone asking him about why he wants them)!
second, perhaps you could create our friend's working drawings for him using chief. id be very interested to see how long it takes you to complete them!
as for me, i give to ceasar what is ceasars, and to god what is gods!:)(figuratively speaking of course, cause im a slackass:o)
by the way, i am a genuine fan of chief. i love the program and wish it had the sort of cad capabilities that autocad has. trouble is, i also realise that kind of product would be almost impossible for a little guy like me to afford to buy and i am so grateful that chief is a rich mans program at a poor mans price!
There are plenty of times when a cabinet deail drawing is needed. I am a kitchen designer / dealer. I design custom kitchens and need to relay some of that information to my cabinet maker or even the guys in my own shop. Yes you may not need to create a detail drawing of every cabinet on a job, but if you are doing custom cabinets you are going to need some if you want your cabinets built the way you designed them. This goes from a simple specing out an oven cabinet, which is what I came on here to look for. Lets say a tall cabinet with a single wall oven and a separate built in microwave above. Cheif already doesn't make it very easy to set this up, but I still need to let the cabinet maker know, how high is the bottom drawer, oven cutout, micro cut out, spacing in between.
Hi,
This is my first time at "ChiefTalk", having been recently introduced to the program by a friend. I am writing this because I ran across this discussion about cabinets and cabinet design software. I designed custom cabinets for almost 10 years. I did the design and and shop layouts for more than 4,000 kitchen and bath projects including 6 "Street of Dreams" homes. Most of the jobs were new construction but there were also a lot of remodels and McMansions. The CAD program I used was Cabinetware. Cabinetware is a "dedicated" cabinet design and layout program which at the time, was the premier, production cabinet program used by large manufacturers as well as smaller cabinet shops.
I have been out of the business for quite a while (1995) having gone into the computer/network support business, but I believe that Cabinetware is still #1 for custom and modular cabinet production. This type of program, along with another called 2020 (mainly used by modular designers), is used by cabinet shops and manufacturers to detail/design cabinets complete with a cut-sheet and assembly diagram for each cabinet and their sub assemblies, drawers, frames and doors. Cabinetware also optimizes and batches several jobs together to minimize material waste. all jobs were electronically sent to a semi automated CNC beam saw for cutting and a multi-tool CNC milling machine for boring, dado/rabbeting and finish cutting, notching etc.
As a mater of fact, I started out my career as a mechanical engineer building the plant, installing and setting up the equipment and systems and ended up staying on for the next 8 years as the "Chief" cabinet designer (little pun there). Most modern cabinet shops use cabinetware or similar programs to maximize efficiency, reduce waste and most of all, reduce costly errors (What do you mean the silverware drawer hits the dish washer handle?).
Most architects would conceptualize a kitchen or bath space, then hand that portion of the project over to the cabinet people. We would then meet with the customer and iron out the details and preferences (material, door styles, color and hardware, etc.). We would then produce preliminary designs and detail drawings (with 3D renderings if needed) for final approval by the customer. Our sales reps. would also measure the finished spaces, after construction, before sending the final measurements to the layout and design department for finalization and construction.
It was not unusual for us to not even meet with the architect on any but the most expensive or unusual homes. Although we frequently met with builders and contractors and the occasional interior designer.
Custom cabinet building is as much an art form as it is a craft and each shop has their own style of construction. The only exception to this is 32mm European style cabinets, often referred to as "boxes" (for obvious reasons). Most of the 32mm boxes are prefabbed or factory built in modular sizes. The only distinguishable difference between brands is the add-on hardware or door styles. This is why Big Box Stores sell European style cabinets, often using 2020 to do the modular layouts.
It takes a lot of experience and knowledge to consistently produce, mistake free, custom cabinets in a production environment. Even using programs such as Cabinetware. There are still smaller "Old School" shops around but they are generally relegated to the smaller remodeling market or the very high-end custom market. These shops tend to specialize in exotic woods and custom detail and trim projects.
It has been a lot of years since I discussed my old profession as a kitchen and bath designer having spent the last, almost 20 years, in network wiring closets or mucking around in the electronic guts of some malfunctioning piece of technology. I have enjoyed sharing my bit of knowledge with you about the custom cabinet business. I guess I still have some sawdust in my veins (as well as a "Honkin-Big, 2 blade table saw in my shop). The only designing I do these days is the design of my 1913 craftsman, whole-house remodel, complete with built-in AV system, home theater and 4 lovely new bathrooms complete with a urinal in my shop. I designed the kitchen in "92" during the first of 3 rounds of remodeling.
When I finally finish my project this summer I will start on my last big project, a New England style barn house, designed using Chief Architect. The house will be ell shaped with a huge shop on one leg with an apartment over it. I am using a 40' shipping container for the lower back foundation, under the shop. I plan on storing all of my accumulated treasures in the container, using a home designed and built elevator to access the upper floor and the storage container. This should give me enough room for my home built CNC mill, CNC plasma cutting table (4'x8') and CNC lathe along with a hydraulic auto lift, tool room and of course my "Honkin-Big" table saw and assorted other wood working and metal working equipment (I took up welding and metal fab in my old age). I will share my progress and drawings with the group as my project progresses, sometime later this summer.
I hope this information is helpful to people or students just getting into the residential design and building profession. Now if I can just get Chief to let me input my multi-level foundation, balloon framing and double basement walls correctly.....
Sincerely,
MisterFixIt1952
Well hello and welcome to ChiefTalk MisterFixit, good to have you aboard.
Andy.
I'm pretty sure you can do this now. Do you have X4?Quote:
I hope this information is helpful to people or students just getting into the
residential design and building profession. Now if I can just get Chief to let
me input my multi-level foundation, balloon framing and double basement walls
correctly.....
Caught your question and wanted to add my own input here. "Full Blown" CAD program can mean many things to many people. In my opinion there are several short comings but the most obvious and glaring falls to accuracy. Yes, the need for anything less than 1/8th's in home construction (in the field) is nuts. The lumber alone has so many variations that the need for rounding is obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Brown
On the flip side, a "Full Blown" CAD program would offer accuracy into the thousandths and better. Enough so that cumulative rounding isn't a problem. When dealing with the needed accuracy for millwork and custom cabinetry, especially in areas such as radius corners and curved surfaces, Chief does not have it. Chief was never intended for such in the first place, at least not up to my current version of the software that is.
Max
I'm not sure I understand you correctly but Chief can go to 1/128 and its adjustable so you can set the level of accuracy to 1", if you want, in your plans for construction. I set mine to 1/2" for house plans.
I use 1/4", you know, half of a 2X4 is 3/4"X1-3/4"...... I had to go to Coronado this morning for a possible new job...... P., you and Penny must come down some time and we can go to Coronado for the day, what a great place, and just think, Dorothy lives there full time, ain't she lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by perryh
You do have a point there. I usually just use 3 1/2", 5 1/2 for walls, not totally accurate but haven't had a problem and a lot easier to figure. Never been a wiz in math. Some framers say forget about the 1/2", they aren't math wizzes either. Yes, San Diego is better than Hawaii, it has everything and some day we will come, for sure. Love it there. We tend to Cruise out of S.D. just for the views and weather. We have even Cruised from L.A. to S.D. I think it has the best port to visit. You are so lucky.
I do too, but if I want to center beam over wall I usually have to move it 1-3/4", thus a 1/4" modules.................. but no big deal............. that was my thinking, don't know if it really matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by perryh
I have just spent the last 7 days locked in my computer room, only leaving for the necessities (food, bathroom etc) trying to get Chief to draw my basement correctly. I have read all three manuals no less than 4 times each, I have been over every nook and cranny on the defaults setup and I finally wiped everything and started with little test box floors cut with the 3D camera. After using the trial and error (and take a look ) method I think that I might finally have it figured out (I have said this no less than a dozen times).
The problem is, my basement walls are pony walls with a framed short wall on top. There is a slab foundation sitting on the footing (I think, forgot my z-ray glasses in my other jacket), also, the basement is a 2/3s basement with the upper wall continuing all around the perimeter with a shorter pony wall in the front third making a crawl space with some posts and beams.
Anyway, setting this up should have been, not easy, but not impossible. X2 seems to deal with basement stem walls differently than X4, which is much improved but still confusing. The manual is pathetic in it's lack of specific information about reference points. Days worth of head banging could have been avoided with a couple of reference pictures showing the dimensions referred to in the manual. With some of the dimensions you measure down from the 0 point on floor 1 and some you apparently measure up or down from either the basement floor or ceiling, I'm still not sure. Also X2 measures the stem wall from the top of the outside footing to the top of the sub floor but X4 measure to the bottom of the basement ceiling (or the bottom of the 1st floor), I think.
In the wall type dialog box, where you set up the pony walls, there are 2 boxes where you are supposed to set up the default height of the concrete foundation wall and the height of the upper section but no mater what you put in one the second box repeats it so both numbers are locked together. Also it's not clear what the number is although one place in the manual says it's the distance from floor 0 to the top of the pony wall. Also it doesn't mention the sill plate (like in X2).
I am used to thinking in programming terms and have spent 45 or so years reading technical manuals and learning different programs but it has been a long time since I have run into such a convoluted head banger such as this. I even tried watching some of the you tube instructional videos and almost busted a gut watching a pro saying things like "you just set this and that and...no wait...you do this then....no that's not it....just a minute I think it's this...that should work...lets try this". I have to say that I felt a bit better after that. At lest I know I'm not the only one having problems.
To top it off I have an attached garage with a monolithic slab that sticks out behind the house and bends into an ell shape which contains a deck with a hot tub. The garage has a vaulted ceiling with a partial ceiling over the garage door to hold the door tracks and is also storage. I drew the plans by hand on my old trusty drawing board with my K&E drafting arm and drafting tools. I build the whole thing in almost the time I have spent trying to get Chief to draw my foundations correctly.
Last (but not least), is my balloon framing on floor 1. Typical 1913 walls with the ceiling rafters sitting on a notched 1x6 stringer and nailed into the side of the 10' 2x4s about 8" down from the top plate creating a short wall in the attic that the roof sits on. I see balloon framing in the wall General dialog box but it appears to have no visible function because it does not affect the ceiling rafters in any visible way. The only way I can see to drop the ceiling is to add a second floor 8" tall or use the soffit feature to drop the ceiling.
I haven't had much time to explore the roof area yet, being stuck in the basement and garage for so long. At least I have spent so much time exploring the defaults that there isn't much that I don't know about the defaults. Some of my walls have been firred out to 6" for more insulation and I turned the bathroom into a walk-in closet and the back corner bedroom into a master bath suite, complete with bubble tub, vaulted ceiling and HDTV behind the mirror over the tub (so I can sit on the john and catch the news in the morning). BTW, you should see my PEX manifold in the basement. I mounted it into an ABS network box so it looks like an electric panel for water. All of the AV equipment and house server are in the attic in a communications rack. I also moved the gas furnace into the attic to make room in the basement for 2 bedrooms, a second kitchen, a laundry room a second master bath and a home theater. All of which needs to be on these blue prints so the inspector can let me finish this monster project.
Now if I can just get this foundation to see things my way, the rest is a piece of cake. The real reason I am spending so much time learning the ins and outs of Chief is so I can design my next abode, the one I will live in until the reaper comes for me. I hope I can finish it before then. It would be nice to live in a home that I'm not remodeling (I think that's what my third wife said just before she left me):D.
This has been a welcomed break but now I must get back to the task at hand... finishing this plan.
A good, down and dirty way to get perfect cabinet plans is to design your basic cabinet box, one for each room 36h x 24d for kitchens and 32h x 21d for baths (or what ever suits you). Then make a general cut away showing the construction details using any program you like (including Chief). Then use a spread sheet to calculate all of the parts and door/drawer sizes. Once you have laid out 1 cabinet the rest are easy. The old timers in the shop I used to work at used story sticks to lay out the boxes by hand. I used to own a furniture company back in the day, and built futon bed frames and assorted bedroom furniture using nothing more than hand drawn cut sheets. Using a spread sheet for the part dimensions is easy to do and completely accurate. Just check your design out thoroughly against your results. If one is good all of them are good. Also you can send your printout to a door maker and have the doors and drawer faces pre-made. The main thing to keep track of is the door swings, so they get mounted correctly. Using a spread sheet you can also print out labels for your parts, marking them with a cabinet and opening number.
This is what all of the fancy programs do, just in a more graphical way. If you are only doing a one of a kind or the occasional kitchen, the time spent on the spread sheet is well worth it as it can be used over and over with little or no modification. Also if you go to a kitchen showroom with a tape, pad and pencil, you can find out anything you need to know about how the boxes are built.
This advice isn't fancy but it's effective and cheaper than $3000 or more for a cabinet design program. Although I think you can get a stripper for about $1500 if you don't need the bells and whistles.